Ago old question about which boats to choose

[loverobot]

I know that this question has been asked many times and for that I apologise. I am however genuinely little bit confused and would really appreciate the collective wisdom of experience on the forum so that I can make a proper decision

A little bit of history is probably a good idea to start with. My wife and I are novice sailors of yachts who have had a lot of dinghy sailing and racing experience. I 1st set foot on a yacht in October last year with hot liquid and was exposed to 6 m high seas and force 8 winds in pretty difficult sailing conditions when we crossed the Channel. I did my competent crew and it was a little bit of a baptism of fire. This was the only yacht that I have so far set foot on; it was a Bavaria 36 and whilst the boat survived I wouldn't have described it as comfortable or good in those types of conditions particularly when beating into wind for hours on end

I have just about completed my day skipper theory and in 2 weeks time am going to the Channel Islands to undertake my day skipper practical. My wife is doing competent crew.

In June we are going to a flotilla in Greece and are taking our 12-year-old son who is also a dinghy sailor

This is all leading up to me buying a boat and I have looked at lots and progressively become more confused

My budget is about £30,000 but I can go higher if needed. I would prefer of course to go lower so long as I would not sacrifice the usability of the boat that I bought. Initially I am looking to put the boat at Whitehaven Marina however I do intend to in the medium term to move it on to the south coast then onto the Channel Islands and then probably further afield still. I want a boat that is sea kindly but not too large because I want to be able to comfortably sail shorthanded; sometimes single-handed

Both my wife and I are quite small in terms of both height and girth and I am not too worried about a more modern roomier boat; I would prefer something that sales well and is robust; something that will be fast enough to be fun but not an out and out race boat because I do to spend holidays aboard

The reason for my confusion is that there are lots of boats that appear to fit these criteria when looking with my limited experience and understanding but which vary vastly in price. I have looked at Sadlers from 27 to 34 feet as well as Contessas, Moodys again from 27 to 33 feet and also boats at the cheaper end of the scale for example Jaguar 27 or Alvin Vega

It seems strange to me that I could end up paying £10,000 more for what seems to be a door on the aft cabin; lots of the boats in this length appear to have aft sleeping quarters but only the more expensive appear to have them in an actual cabin?

I'm not sure if I'm missing something but is there any particular reason that boats like a Jaguar 27 are so cheap?

Many thanks

 

[Tranona]

With your budget and anticipated size (+/- 30ft) you have to be looking at similar boats to those on your list. Smaller boats like the Jaguar are cheaper because they aare smaller and less capable - by that I mean that they have less space and less speed potential, not that they are bad. You will find a big differencebetween an older style 27 footer and a more modern 30 footer. Just compare a Sadler 29 with the Vega to see the difference.

Once you have tried your flotilla you will appreciate the value of size for living on. When you get to buy your first boat it will almost certainly not be your last, and there is a lot of merit in buying something simple and commonplace so that you can learn what you like and don't like before you buy your long term boat. It is highly unlikely that as family sailors you will ever go out in the conditions you describe and most cruising boats are quite capable of undertaking the sort of passages most people do.

The trick in buying for the first time in the sector of the market you are looking at is to buy primarily on condition - you don't want a boat that needs work and money while you are learning. Don't get too hung up about a specific design until you really know why you prefer one boat to another. You can get perfectly capable boats for much less than your budget - save the money for the next one!

Just about everybody goes through the process you are going through, and few hit it right first time. Good luck with your search.

 

[Avocet]

I wouldn't do anything until after your flotilla holiday - you might come back with a different (or at least more refined) set of requirements!

We've been in Whitehaven in the past - a good place, certainly, but the Solway, St Beees Head, Morecambe bay and the Mull of Galloway are all famous for short-steep waves and a big tidal range. They're also, more often than not, a lee shore! It will be different on the South Coast. We have a traditional long-keeler. Lovely motion in the short chop, but lousy accommodation. Nice to sleep on at night though - no slapping noises from the stern counter like you often get in the beamier modern boats.

Will you be wanting a boat that can dry out, or are you happy to anchor off and take the tender ashore?

For a good all-rounder (fairly good accommodation, fairly good turn of speed, pretty tough and sea-kindly etc), I think you might get a Westerly Fulmar or Sadler 32 for that sort of budget.

 

[blackbeard]

Some good advice in replies so far.

If you can beat across Channel in a force 8 in a Bavaria and come back for more, then you have my admiration, Sir.

As has been said: if you have a trip planned, then leave final choice until you have experience from that trip.

Also: go for a smaller boat in top condition rather than a bigger one in not-quite-so-good condition.

Many sailors, yes even ones on this very forum, find more satisfaction in a boat which is good inshore, exploring inviting little harbours and waterside pubs, and maybe shallow draft and even able to take ground, rather than in one which is optimised for long offshore passages. Inshore passages can be as, or more, demanding on skills as long offshore ones. Of course, some boats which are good inshore are still capable of offshore (eg cross-Channel) passages though, for choice, preferably not in a force 8.

You may experience a demand for standing headroom, decent galley and reasonable loo. Should be possible to accommodate this.

 

[RupertW]

Given the irrationality of buying a boat in the first place, I think the boat choice starts with the mental image you have of yourself and family with the boat.

Is it 3 brave individuals thrashing through a gale - something tough and able like a Contessa

Is it rowing away from the lovely looking boat up a creek to a warm pub - nice old shapely bilge keeler like a Westerley Wight

Is it lounging about the cockpit on a sunny day in Brittany after a lovely day swimming and sailing - an older but bigger Jeanneau or Beneteau but watch your budget and the state of the engine

My tastes have changed a lot over the years - a long way from lovingly doing up a banana shaped Mauruce Griffiths centre cockpit boat with bowsprit and a triple keel.

As many ideal boat types as dreams and wallets, I think

 

[loverobot]

Thanks - v helpful
Tbh the cross channel thing was 'character building' ! As dinghy sailors at Grimwith in the Yorks Dales we arent afraid of a bit of wind but I do appreciate the need to be safe when we have our son as well with us especially as we learn
Thanks for the info re whitehaven as well - hadnt really thought about the fact of lee shore which is obvious now you have mentioned it
I will 'report' back after the flotilla as you say though I guess that will be v different to Uk coastal waters type sailing as its Vounaki in June so should be pretty benign fingers crossed!

 

[BAtoo]

Of the older boats in your price range the Sadler 32 stands out; good sailing boat etc. but it is limited in acommodation, it is an old design (from the 70's), the walk through toilet looses a bit of privacy etc.. It is an open designs so given a year or two when son wishes to have friends along it might be a bit too open....

Despite what you read here dont discount some of the late 80's early 90's BenJenBavs. The extra cabin door is a boonas on routine visits you three can all sleep outside the main cabin leaving it tidy etc, and when firends come along they have some privacy too..The sailing abilities of boats of this age/design are prefectly suitable for mot people -i.e. mainly coastal hops & the odd cross channel/North Sea

 

[Seajet]

loverobot,

you are well placed, dinghy sailors always have an advantage over those who've only known cruisers, plus you've been shown how not to do it with cruisers !

Reading your post all my instincts scream 'Sadler 29', great boats, and more to the point a real Sailors' Boat.

I'd go for a twin keeler for the versatility; they still sail very well in any conditions.

 

[Laurie]

Some good replies...........
I'll keep mine limited to why Jaguars seem relatively cheap.
Having had 2, & founded the ex. association.........Jaguars were built as cheap boats in the first place. Eric Birch of Canvey Yacht Builders, the builders of Jaguars amongst others, was one of the first, and for a time the most successful, builders using a modular approach to boat buiding, now much copied. This bought unit costs down considerably, and allowed much shorter production times.
Jaguars were never hand crafted/high end yachts. Eric bought in what were already well known & successful designs in the J22, 25, 27 yachts, all being Catalinas, licence built in the UK. So successful were CYB at this that they even exported into Europe, and some even went back to America.
I'm not saying that the Jaguars may be quite what you are looking for, but they sail very well ( I had my 27 out in F7s & latterly a F9 blast in the Thames estuary)
After 14 happy years we have now sold her for something a touch roomier in the sub 30 foot category.

 

[onesea]

My advice, look at as many boats as possible. Fender kicking can be a nice day out.

Any chance get you your family on any boat and decide what YOU ALL like.

Do you value that door, for privacy? Can you live with the small aft cabin on the charter boat?

We could not so bought the boat without the door at a better price...

Do you value creeks or offshore passages? Its possible with the right boat to sail round the UK with next to no night passages...

If your relatively inexperienced at sailing buy a boat that you like that suits your area. I would say for 1/3rd your budget you could get a reasonable boat.

Then you can make any mistakes in hopefully an affordable way. Then sell 12 months 2 years later when you have a better idea of what you want.

EVERY boat is a compromise, you just need to learn what you will compromise on...

 

[Finbar]

In your position about six years ago I bought a Sadler 32, without much information except I sailed on one for a weekend to get my ICC. I sailed her around Ireland and from Skye to the Scillies and never regretted my choice. The only other boat of similar size I coveted was the Westerly Fulmar already mentioned, a fine sea boat. I have chartered the Jen/Ben/Bavs and while they are certainly more spacious inside, they are not in the same class as go anywhere sailing boats.

On the other hand if you want to day sail short hops, they will work fine, and could be more comfortable overnight.

I have now gone bigger, perhaps to go further, but I occasionally pine for the Sadler.

 

[TQA]

How about a Rival 32 ?

That would do the job and be well within the budget.

Solid seaworthy boat that has circumnavigated.

 

[Tranona]

How about a Rival 32 ?

That would do the job and be well within the budget.

Solid seaworthy boat that has circumnavigated.

Circumnavigation does not seem to be on the OPs agenda. Anyway why is the fact that a boat has circumnavigated a good reason for buying a family cruising boat? And incidentally all kinds of boats have circumnavigated so the suggested boat is in no way unusual.

 

[stuartwineberg]

Some things to ask yourself

Lot of good advice here but a lot of it relating to interior layout. When you go on the flotilla (or when you go fender kicking) have a look at things like:

Wheel vs tiller, positioning of the winches - if you are going to be short/single handed how are you going to handle the sails. Big or small wheel - I have been on many boats with huge wheels that are a delight to steer with but with many you have to hop onto the seats to get past in a hurry. Look where the mainsheet traveller is placed. A lot of modern cruisers put it on the coachroof where it is very safe but impossible for the helmsman to handle. Do you want all the lines led back to the cockpit? As a shorthanded sailor have you looked at boats with self-tacking jibs? Do you want a stack pack for the main? How heavy a weather do you want to be ready for - do you need a boat that is rigged for a stormsail and has a third reefing point.

I am no expert and I am sure that much better sailors than me could (and will) pick up on this list and improve it. Hopefully I haven't confused the issue but as other posters have said - a Force 8 Bavaria survivor deserves respect and I think you can handle all these ideas.