After brexit will a UK registered boat be subject to vat in Europe

[Fr J Hackett]

The EU can do whatever it likes if it thinks it is in the interests of the EU. Logic has little to do with it. Logic says if we leave completely we become a third country and boats from third countries are not allowed to move freely. On the other hand if there is a negotiated settlement that leaves the UK part in and part out (which looks probable) then some sort of compromise is likely. the difficulty in arriving at that compromise is that the issue of how to identify and classify boats according to VAT payment is far more complex than at first sight.

As to evidence, the three types of evidence accepted, largely depending on the state where the VAT was paid are commercial receipt (UK) official state registration of payment (most other states) or customs receipt for private imports.

Anything a builder "certifies" is completely irrelevant except perhaps the invoice for the original sale if it was to a private individual. Even then it would have to be the original, not a copy.

The EU can do what it likes but I suggest their is a legal case for claiming that "EU" VAT has been paid on vessels whilst the UK is a member of the EU by virtue of the fact that a proportion of all VAT receipts from all EU countries goes directly to the EU. They cannot (legally) then deny that VAT has been paid. The question then arises that if the boat remains in the UK will it eventually lose its VAT paid status?

I raise the question of proof of VAT payment purely for current UK boats because the UK is unique in not giving specific VAT paid receipts via C&E except on imports. With the propensity of EU customs officials to be over zealous vis Belgian red diesel fiasco whatever happens in the future this may pose problems.
The builders certificate is the original purchase invoice and receipt noting VAT paid but as you have often pointed out that does not relate to the specific yacht but purely to the builders accounting practice and quarterly VAT payments.

 

[Carmel2]

The EU can do what it likes but I suggest their is a legal case for claiming that "EU" VAT has been paid on vessels whilst the UK is a member of the EU by virtue of the fact that a proportion of all VAT receipts from all EU countries goes directly to the EU. They cannot (legally) then deny that VAT has been paid. The question then arises that if the boat remains in the UK will it eventually lose its VAT paid status?

I raise the question of proof of VAT payment purely for current UK boats because the UK is unique in not giving specific VAT paid receipts via C&E except on imports. With the propensity of EU customs officials to be over zealous vis Belgian red diesel fiasco whatever happens in the future this may pose problems.
The builders certificate is the original purchase invoice and receipt noting VAT paid but as you have often pointed out that does not relate to the specific yacht but purely to the builders accounting practice and quarterly VAT payments.

My original bill of sale has a stamp from the builder stating Vat is paid and the hull number.

 

[Tranona]

I raise the question of proof of VAT payment purely for current UK boats because the UK is unique in not giving specific VAT paid receipts via C&E except on imports. With the propensity of EU customs officials to be over zealous vis Belgian red diesel fiasco whatever happens in the future this may pose problems.
The builders certificate is the original purchase invoice and receipt noting VAT paid but as you have often pointed out that does not relate to the specific yacht but purely to the builders accounting practice and quarterly VAT payments.

I am afraid you misunderstand the nature of VAT and builder's certificates. The latter is establishing title to the boat - that is it is connected directly to the boat. title is then passed through subsequent Bills of Sale. In fact many builders use a Bill of Sale to pass title to the first buyer. The certificate then provides the basic details of the boat such as HIN and who built it.

VAT is a transaction tax and the evidence required for VAT is to support the last "chargeable event" which may or may not be the invoice from the builder, unless it was a sale direct to a private individual. So for the new boat I bought 3 years ago I have never seen the invoice from Bavaria as the only one that is relevant is the one from Clipper to me. On the other hand I do have the builders certificate and Bill of Sale from Bavaria to Clipper as that is part of the trail of legitimate title to the boat.

I am not aware of any "law" that says because a portion of VAT went to Brussels that means boats pre Brexit can travel freely. It may well be a negotiating argument but you have seen already how the EU throws all that sort of argument out of the window if it suits them. See the Gallileo rumpus for a recent example. Just because the UK has contributed £1bn towards it plus most of the technology does not mean we have a right to participate in the programme after Brexit - according to the current (fake?) news.

 

[Tranona]

My original bill of sale has a stamp from the builder stating Vat is paid and the hull number.

Completely meaningless I am afraid. Bill of Sale is not an invoice nor a VAT document. It is a record of transfer of title.

 

[Carmel2]

Completely meaningless I am afraid. Bill of Sale is not an invoice nor a VAT document. It is a record of transfer of title.

I bought the boat from new, a detailed invoice is included with the payment schedule including the builders stamp, stating vat paid...

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I am afraid you misunderstand the nature of VAT and builder's certificates. The latter is establishing title to the boat - that is it is connected directly to the boat. title is then passed through subsequent Bills of Sale. In fact many builders use a Bill of Sale to pass title to the first buyer. The certificate then provides the basic details of the boat such as HIN and who built it.

VAT is a transaction tax and the evidence required for VAT is to support the last "chargeable event" which may or may not be the invoice from the builder, unless it was a sale direct to a private individual. So for the new boat I bought 3 years ago I have never seen the invoice from Bavaria as the only one that is relevant is the one from Clipper to me. On the other hand I do have the builders certificate and Bill of Sale from Bavaria to Clipper as that is part of the trail of legitimate title to the boat.

I am not aware of any "law" that says because a portion of VAT went to Brussels that means boats pre Brexit can travel freely. It may well be a negotiating argument but you have seen already how the EU throws all that sort of argument out of the window if it suits them. See the Gallileo rumpus for a recent example. Just because the UK has contributed £1bn towards it plus most of the technology does not mean we have a right to participate in the programme after Brexit - according to the current (fake?) news.

There is no law I said a legal case where it could be demonstrated that VAT had been paid and thus the EU would have been recipients of some of that VAT, it would then not be possible for them to deny that VAT had been paid. A far different scenario to the Gallileo one.

I understand the nature of builders certificates and accompanying invoices and also the less than ideal situation of proving VAT payment in the UK as CE do not in the normal course of business issue receipts. VAT status and title are two very different things which you seem to be conflating.

 

[macd]

VAT status and title are two very different things which you seem to be conflating.

Indeed they are, but by my reading he's doing the very opposite.
(Even discounting that the very concept of a 'VAT status' of things is a logical nonsense, albeit one promoted by the VAT authorities, but there you go.)

 

[Tranona]

There is no law I said a legal case where it could be demonstrated that VAT had been paid and thus the EU would have been recipients of some of that VAT, it would then not be possible for them to deny that VAT had been paid. A far different scenario to the Gallileo one.

I understand the nature of builders certificates and accompanying invoices and also the less than ideal situation of proving VAT payment in the UK as CE do not in the normal course of business issue receipts. VAT status and title are two very different things which you seem to be conflating.

That is not a "legal" case - just a negotiating argument. To be "legal" it has to challenge under a law that exists and there is no law that says payments of a proportion of VAT to Brussels confers rights of free movement if the UK leaves the EU.

Sorry it is you that has got it wrong and are conflating the two. See the last part of your post#20 when you do exactly that.

I was responding to that and making it crystal clear that a builders certificate is not evidence of VAT paid. indeed it does not even (normally) have a price on it. Same with a Bill of Sale. They are documents supporting title, not invoices.

 

[Tranona]

I bought the boat from new, a detailed invoice is included with the payment schedule including the builders stamp, stating vat paid...

It is the VAT invoice that is the evidence. It should have a description of the goods, the amount of VAT charged and the seller's VAT number. That is the evidence HMRC requires.

 

[Carmel2]

It is the VAT invoice that is the evidence. It should have a description of the goods, the amount of VAT charged and the seller's VAT number. That is the evidence HMRC requires.

It has.

 

[Tranona]

It has.

You are indeed in an enviable position of knowing the complete history, as am I with my latest boat. Very few are so lucky.

 

[nortada]

You are indeed in an enviable position of knowing the complete history, as am I with my latest boat. Very few are so lucky.

Me to. Bought from new as a private individual I have a complete data trail. I also have a HMRC franked EU F C88/T2L️

Sorry, I’ll get my hat. :encouragement:

 

[Tranona]

I also have a HMRC franked EU F C88/T2L️

Sorry, I’ll get my hat. :encouragement:

Which as we all know is completely meaningless!

Sorry, could not resist!

 

[nortada]

Which as we all know is completely meaningless!

Sorry, could not resist!

Hook, line and sinker and wrong.

Just ask some folk in Portugal. :encouragement:

 

[Tranona]

Hook, line and sinker and wrong.

Just ask some folk in Portugal. :encouragement:

Did not say it was not useful in certain circumstances, just that it has no meaning as a document for a boat where VAT has already been paid.

 

[nortada]

Did not say it was not useful in certain circumstances, just that it has no meaning as a document for a boat where VAT has already been paid.

Suddenly gains a lot of meaning when a man with gun demands sight of your T2L and places a lien on your boat with threats of further reprisals if you cannot produce your T2L within 30 days.

May become even more significant Post Brexit

 

[Heckler]

Suddenly gains a lot of meaning when a man with gun demands sight of your T2L and places a lien on your boat with threats of further reprisals if you cannot produce your T2L within 30 days.

May become even more significant Post Brexit

Indeed, the boys in Bruces have had a look at mine and are busy getting their own.
Stu

 

[Graham376]

Did not say it was not useful in certain circumstances, just that it has no meaning as a document for a boat where VAT has already been paid.

In theory, what you say is true but there are some idiot officials around who just want to see bits of paper they think have meaning. Most Portuguese problems seem to arise in Lagos where gun toting officials stroll around pontoons and draw straws to see who gets harassed next.

 

[Tranona]

In theory, what you say is true but there are some idiot officials around who just want to see bits of paper they think have meaning. Most Portuguese problems seem to arise in Lagos where gun toting officials stroll around pontoons and draw straws to see who gets harassed next.

Sounds like a good reason to avoid the place!

Even if the piece of paper is USEFUL to keep the baddies happy, it still has no MEANING in respect of VAT payment.

 

[nortada]

In theory, what you say is true but there are some idiot officials around who just want to see bits of paper they think have meaning. Most Portuguese problems seem to arise in Lagos where gun toting officials stroll around pontoons and draw straws to see who gets harassed next.

Sounds like a good reason to avoid the place!

Even if the piece of paper is USEFUL to keep the baddies happy, it still has no MEANING in respect of VAT payment.

Ref Lagos just not true.

Officialdom in Lagos is no different than any other part of Portugal and I have heard of no incidents of harassment. Much more police activity in Culatra and up the Guadiana.

From what I have established the T2L saga centred around Faro and the eastern end of the Algarve. Faro customs issued the liens for T2L, then Lagos customs cancelled them and permitted vessels to leave.

If Marina de Lagos is so bad why is it frequently referred to as Port Velcro

OK Tranona, if you wish, you play semantics (your usual game) while the rest of use try to offer useful advice based on experience and reality.