Advice please for Adverc replacement options

[DanTribe]

I am replacing my old Yanmar engine with a new Beta 20.
After much head scratching, phone calls and emails, Adverc have now established that my new Mahle 75 amp alternator is incompatible with the existing Adverc. Apparently the alternator has a micro processor regulator and the Adverc is transistor.
The old set up was Hitachi 55amp alternator, Adverc controller, Sure Power 1203 blocking diode, 1/ 110amp domestic, 1/ 110amp fridge, & 1/ 75 amp starter batteries.

I now have to run some tests and they will tell me what new stuff I have to buy. I will probably need a low loss diode or VSR. These are just words to me, can anyone advise, simply, which would be a good route to take please?
Gently please, I'm a building surveyor, electronicals not my strong point.

 

[RichardS]

With a modern alternator I suspect that you probably wouldn't need the Adverc anyway, so you now have less to go wrong.

I'll leave others to comment on the pros and cons of diodes/VSRs/12B switches as I have the simplest arrangement which might not suit your 3 battery configuration.

Richard

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'd simplify things.

Connect the two 110ah batteries together, keep the 75ah separate for the engine. Fit a good diode or a VSR so the alternator charges both banks. Fit a Blue Sea Dual Circuit Plus (or equivalent) isolator switch.

The output of your new alternator is nearly 50% greater than the old one, so you very well may not need the Adverc. If you find that's not the case it's not a big deal to fit an advanced alternator regulator that would work well with the above.

 

[pvb]

Modern alternators are usually set to a higher voltage than old alternators (say 14.5v versus 14.0v), so you shouldn't need a booster at all.

If you subsequently find that you want to add a booster, consider a Sterling Alternator-to-Battery charger, which doesn't need any alterations making to the alternator. It also has an integral splitter.

You should replace the blocking diode with a VSR or a low-loss splitter. The Quick ECS163 splitter has very low volt drop.

I'd also suggest you put your 2 domestic batteries in parallel.

 

[neil1967]

I use a sterling 'zero loss' splitter, between the alternator and the domestic and starter banks. It's a sealed electronic splitter, rather than just a diode, so avoids the losses in a basic splitter. I then have a separate switch to parallel the two banks should i need to in an emergency. 3 domestic batteries are permanently connected in parallel. Simples!

 

[GHA]

With a modern alternator I suspect that you probably wouldn't need the Adverc anyway, so you now have less to go wrong.

+1
I recently installed Lledrod a beta 35, it's alternator regulator is set at 14.6v, so no real gain from an adverc.

(tiny gain, as the alternator senses the voltage at the alternator, not the batteries)

 

[JumbleDuck]

Connect the two 110ah batteries together, keep the 75ah separate for the engine. Fit a good diode or a VSR so the alternator charges both banks. Fit a Blue Sea Dual Circuit Plus (or equivalent) isolator switch.

I agree. I've got the dual circuit plus, and it makes life nice and simple. Switch on at start of cruise, switch off at the end. No faffing around with a 1-2-both every time I start the engine.

(tiny gain, as the alternator senses the voltage at the alternator, not the batteries)

It can also override temperature compensation in the alternator. My Hitachi is nominally 14.4V (from memory) but that drops drastically when it heats up. I have an Adverc fitted, and it's wee "I am doing something" green light only ever comes on when the engine has been running for an hour or more.

Of course it's open to debate whether overriding the manufacturer's temperature compensation is a good idea ...

 

[BabaYaga]

I am replacing my old Yanmar engine with a new Beta 20.
After much head scratching, phone calls and emails, Adverc have now established that my new Mahle 75 amp alternator is incompatible with the existing Adverc. Apparently the alternator has a micro processor regulator and the Adverc is transistor.

I found this information interesting, as a I have been running a Beta 20 with the optional Iskra 70A alternator controlled by an Adverc for ten years (Iskra > Lettrika > Mahle = so basically the same supplier).
Do you have any further information on when and how this incompatibility occured? Have Beta/Mahle changed something in the spec or is it your existing Adverc that is too old?

 

[GHA]

It can also override temperature compensation in the alternator. My Hitachi is nominally 14.4V (from memory) but that drops drastically when it heats up.

Yet to notice that with mine, big lcd voltmeter direct to batteries visible from cockpit which seems to settle at 14.6v, though by the time it gets to absorption it's not pushing that many amps in anyway. Is 45C hot for an alternator? Might be a bit warmer inside.

 

[jdc]

Yet to notice that with mine, big lcd voltmeter direct to batteries visible from cockpit which seems to settle at 14.6v, though by the time it gets to absorption it's not pushing that many amps in anyway. Is 45C hot for an alternator? Might be a bit warmer inside.

I don't understand what you're getting at. It seems to me that the temperature of the alternator can't be a relevant parameter, what am I missing?

The thing the charge controller - wherever it's sited - has to know is the temperature of the battery bank, and the type of batteries: AGM or Gel or sealed or flooded wet-cell etc.

So how can an a charge controller built in to the alternator do a good job?

 

[pvb]

Is 45C hot for an alternator? Might be a bit warmer inside.

That's not too hot. Some advanced external regulators (Balmar etc) have alternator protection, with an external temperature sensor, triggering at around 100C.

JumbleDuck may have a temperature compensating alternator, which are being introduced increasingly in vehicles. They tend to reduce charge voltage to around 13.5v when the temperature rises to say 35C - this is intended to safeguard under-bonnet batteries from over-voltage in hot conditions.

 

[BabaYaga]

this is intended to safeguard under-bonnet batteries from over-voltage in hot conditions.

Not only the batteries, but also the alternator. Interesting article here:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/automotive_alternators_vs_deep_cycle_batteries

 

[GHA]

I don't understand what you're getting at. It seems to me that the temperature of the alternator can't be a relevant parameter, what am I missing?

Is if it gets too hot.

The thing the charge controller - wherever it's sited - has to know is the temperature of the battery bank, and the type of batteries: AGM or Gel or sealed or flooded wet-cell etc.

So how can an a charge controller built in to the alternator do a good job?

If you go for gel or agm then you need to take care, for the likes of trojan t105's it's not such a big deal.

• Trojan recommends using the following: For every 1º F below 77º F add 0.0028 volts per cell or for every 1 C below 25º C add 0.005 volts per cell to the charger voltage setting.
  For every 1º F above 77º F subtract 0.0028 volts per cell or for every 1º C above 25º C subtract 0.005 volts per cell to the charger voltage setting.
  
  • 1: A 12 volt battery @ 70º F. The recommended charging voltage at 77º F is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 + (6 cells * 7 degrees below * 0.0028) = 14.92 volts.
  • 2: A 12 volt battery @ 21º C. The recommended charging voltage at 25º C is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 + (6 cells * 4 degrees below * 0.005) = 14.92 volts.
  • 1: A 12 volt battery @ 85º F. The recommended charger voltage at 77º F is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 – (6 cells * 8 degrees above * 0.0028) = 14.67 volts.
  • 2: A 12 volt battery @ 29.5º C. The recommended charger voltage at 25º C is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 – (6 cells * 4.5 degrees above * 0.005) = 14.67 volts.

Also, a possible downside of some smart regulators is they go into float before the batteries are actually fully charged, unless you can change this in a menu and know about it.

 

[jdc]

Is if it gets too hot.



If you go for gel or agm then you need to take care, for the likes of trojan t105's it's not such a big deal.

• Trojan recommends using the following: For every 1º F below 77º F add 0.0028 volts per cell or for every 1 C below 25º C add 0.005 volts per cell to the charger voltage setting.
  For every 1º F above 77º F subtract 0.0028 volts per cell or for every 1º C above 25º C subtract 0.005 volts per cell to the charger voltage setting.
  
  • 1: A 12 volt battery @ 70º F. The recommended charging voltage at 77º F is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 + (6 cells * 7 degrees below * 0.0028) = 14.92 volts.
  • 2: A 12 volt battery @ 21º C. The recommended charging voltage at 25º C is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 + (6 cells * 4 degrees below * 0.005) = 14.92 volts.
  • 1: A 12 volt battery @ 85º F. The recommended charger voltage at 77º F is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 – (6 cells * 8 degrees above * 0.0028) = 14.67 volts.
  • 2: A 12 volt battery @ 29.5º C. The recommended charger voltage at 25º C is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 – (6 cells * 4.5 degrees above * 0.005) = 14.67 volts.

Also, a possible downside of some smart regulators is they go into float before the batteries are actually fully charged, unless you can change this in a menu and know about it.

Thanks for this, but I knew it. What bothers me is what is the relationship between the battery's and the alternator's temperature?

My batteries are under the aft bunk, right next to the hull. The alternator is in the engine compartment (!). So how does the alternator's regulator attempt temperature compensation? It seems fraught with difficulty: can't be a constant offset as the location of the battery and the amount of blown air through the engine bay are unknowns. As is how hard one is running the engine.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Thanks for this, but I knew it. What bothers me is what is the relationship between the battery's and the alternator's temperature?

My batteries are under the aft bunk, right next to the hull. The alternator is in the engine compartment (!). So how does the alternator's regulator attempt temperature compensation? It seems fraught with difficulty: can't be a constant offset as the location of the battery and the amount of blown air through the engine bay are unknowns. As is how hard one is running the engine.

Your alternator thinks it's under the bonnet of a car, a foot or two from the battery.

 

[pvb]

So how does the alternator's regulator attempt temperature compensation?

Most boat alternators with internal regulators have no form of temperature compensation. Adding a "smart" regulator will usually bring some form of compensation for battery temperature, and possibly for alternator temperature.

 

[GHA]

Thanks for this, but I knew it. What bothers me is what is the relationship between the battery's and the alternator's temperature?

My batteries are under the aft bunk, right next to the hull. The alternator is in the engine compartment (!). So how does the alternator's regulator attempt temperature compensation? It seems fraught with difficulty: can't be a constant offset as the location of the battery and the amount of blown air through the engine bay are unknowns. As is how hard one is running the engine.

Dunno.
I've never had a problem with trojans, even at 14.6v it needs to be very hot before it even reaches the recommended charging voltage.

Cheaper batteries might be different.

 

[jdc]

Thanks, all. I'm relieved that I haven't missed something fundamental! My view is thus that 'fancy' or modern alternator mounted regulators are pretty much incompatible with marine installations. Hence imho the best thing to do is get the simplest and doubtless most reliable alternator and supplement it with an Adverc or Sterling external controller.

So in answer to the OP my opinion is that the best place to go is probably Beta and ask if they'd please take back the alternator they fitted to the engine and give in its place a traditional model. Very likely zero cost if the engine is new - Beta are v helpful usually and able to do that sort of thing, and zero cost and hassle as the existing Adverc should then be compatible.

 

[GHA]

Thanks, all. I'm relieved that I haven't missed something fundamental! My view is thus that 'fancy' or modern alternator mounted regulators are pretty much incompatible with marine installations. Hence imho the best thing to do is get the simplest and doubtless most reliable alternator and supplement it with an Adverc or Sterling external controller.

So in answer to the OP my opinion is that the best place to go is probably Beta and ask if they'd please take back the alternator they fitted to the engine and give in its place a traditional model. Very likely zero cost if the engine is new - Beta are v helpful usually and able to do that sort of thing, and zero cost and hassle as the existing Adverc should then be compatible.

I asked beta about an external regulator and they said don't bother, nothing to be gained with a modern alternator. What are you convened about? Is there any evidence of boiled batteries in the millions of cars around the world? There's nothing fancy about modern alternator regulators, they're same as ever but with the voltage set a bit higher.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/controllers.html

 

[jdc]

I asked beta about an external regulator and they said don't bother, nothing to be gained with a modern alternator. What are you convened about? Is there any evidence of boiled batteries in the millions of cars around the world? There's nothing fancy about modern alternator regulators, they're same as ever but with the voltage set a bit higher.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/controllers.html

Well it's possible I'm a bit over fussy. But the point is not that I'm particularly worried about the battery getting fried (although 14.6V for any length of time would very much shorten the life of my batteries) but that it may not be getting charged optimally. With about 660Ah of capacity the cost of a regulator is rather insignificant so that even quite modest improvements in battery lifespan are worth it. Why not sense Voltage and temperature at the battery with an explicit probe? Seems a pretty simple and direct method.