Advice on taking reefing gear to the cockpit

[NigelCraig]

I've started looking at 32ft boats, probably late 60's to mid-80's (Nic 32, Contessa 32, Sadler 32, possibly Fulmar) for boat purchase for next year - probably 90% single handed sailing. Now the only one I've looked at so far is Nic 32 with tacked on in-mast, which may be a good or a bad thing (possibly both). But its more likely I will encounter slab reefing with all reefing at the mast. Now if you can totally rely on self steering (possible with redundancy) to look after the helm, sticking with that has the virtue of simplicity and reliability, especially with a stac-pac type arrangement. However, I'm a bit concerned that in conditions when really deep reefing needed, the self-steering might be challenged to keep it on the wind. (I don't have this prob with my small gaffer - you can heave to and do the main because lacing doesn't load up like slides in a track even when the sail is powered).

Which takes me on to the difficulty of retro-fitting taking lines back to the cockpit. Seems to me there are 4 issues:

1. What do you do about getting the tack cringle over the horn? - can you generate enough leverage to dispense with this?
2. Getting the lines through turning blocks, organisers and then jammers without too much friction
3. Whether the deck is strong enough to take all this (and a winch) without flexing.
4. Finding enough room to lead 6 lines and the halyard back - why 6? - well I think its crazy that with some cockpit reefing systems I've heard of, you have to go to the mast to put the 3rd reef in - probably in conditions you would least want to do that.

Any comments?

 

[DJE]

A boat like that will probably sail herself with the tiller tied for long enough to take in a reef. My Sadler 29 cetainly does. Failing that you can heave to. The sensible choice is either all lines taken back to the cockpit or all lines handled at the mast. When I bought mine she had reef lines and tack hooks to handle at the mast but halyard, topping lift, and vang taken back to the cockpit. I now have all lines taken back and the tack hooks replaced by a second set of reef lines. It's a lot of rope to keep tidy but I can take in or shake out a reef in about a minute or two single handed.

 

[NigelCraig]

Yes forgot about the topping lift and kicker - potentially 9 lines!
Heaving to - you can pull the slides down through the track to get the sail down?

 

[Robert Wilson]

A boat like that will probably sail herself with the tiller tied for long enough to take in a reef. My Sadler 29 cetainly does. Failing that you can heave to. The sensible choice is either all lines taken back to the cockpit or all lines handled at the mast. When I bought mine she had reef lines and tack hooks to handle at the mast but halyard, topping lift, and vang taken back to the cockpit. I now have all lines taken back and the tack hooks replaced by a second set of reef lines. It's a lot of rope to keep tidy but I can take in or shake out a reef in about a minute or two single handed.

+1
Agreed, there is a lot of friction, but I would rather use the power of my winches than to go forrard in a real blow/sea. I by-pass the tack/horn problem by having down-hauls for the reef-tacks (as above).
I use my normal clew outhaul for first reefing, with a snap shackle on the outhaul "rope" which can then be put onto the first clew reef line - saves one bit of string.

 

[DJE]

With two genoa halyards, spinaker halyard, pole lift, and pole downhaul, I have a total of 12 lines lead back and two winches on the coachroof. You can cut down on ropes by using single line reefing but the need for carefull rigging of blocks inside the boom put me off that system. If I know it's going to be rough I sometimes tie in the first reef before setting off and thread the lines through the second and third reef points.

I don't see your point about slides. If they are clean and well lubricated the sail should fall down under its own weight.

 

[prv]

1. What do you do about getting the tack cringle over the horn? - can you generate enough leverage to dispense with this?

Don't use horns, use tack pendants led aft. On our old boat I had stainless rings on 1" lashings to the eye that held the normal tack, and led the tack pendants up through these beside the gooseneck. That boat only had two reefs, so it was one up either side, but I guess you could have one on one side and two (one with slightly longer lashing) on the other.

2. Getting the lines through turning blocks, organisers and then jammers without too much friction

Not much to say here - how much friction there is will depend on what gear you have, assuming you choose a sensible lead. Don't go overboard on the size of the lines, I guess.

3. Whether the deck is strong enough to take all this (and a winch) without flexing.

I'd have thought the Nic and the Contessa at least will have tank-like decks, and the others are not exactly flimsy either. The turning block at the foot of the mast should really be attached to the mast or mast step rather than the deck, so the mast holds it down. The organiser partway back is under much less load as it's only changing the line direction by 45º or so, plus it's pulling across the deck rather than away from it. So I wouldn't worry about that one. Winches, similarly, are in shear rather than tension. Maxi apparently considered it ok to mount the ones on my 34 with just five smallish machine screws and an ordinary washer under each of the nuts - if you're worried, add a ply, aluminium or stainless backing pad, and you'll be ahead of the pro builders

4. Finding enough room to lead 6 lines and the halyard back

I reckon this could actually be the biggest problem. Obviously the feasibility will depend on your particular deck layout. Note that you can get double-decker organisers which may help, though I don't know if they have a reduced load figure for the upper layer.

Pete

 

[prv]

I don't see your point about slides. If they are clean and well lubricated the sail should fall down under its own weight.

Even with the sail full of wind? Not on any bermudan sail I've used (though admittedly they may not have been clean and well lubricated ). With gaff rig, with mast hoops or a lacing, it will go up and down even full of wind - I used to be able to take in or shake out a reef in Kindred Spirit while sailing downwind with the sail full.

Pete

 

[DJE]

Even with the sail full of wind?

Generally not a lot of wind in mine when reefing or hove too. But I must admit that since I have been using a second set of reef lines at the tack I haven't haven't had to go to the mast and haul one down by hand for a long time. The reef lines give a 2:1 purchase and that is plenty without the use of the winch.

 

[davidej]

Single line reefing means just that - one line per reef. So I can't see why you would need six lines.

It does generate quite a lot of friction but a coachroof mounted winch will cope with it. I sometime find I have to go to the mast to free the pennants when shaking out a reef but never when taking it in.

Only having two reefs is quite common for cruising boats _ I have cringles for a third reef but no pennant fitted. The third reef is usually the donk!

 

[doug748]

A few points on the Contessa 32, tho I guess they are equally applicable to similar types:

1) I reef at the mast, pulling the luff down to the horns by hand, it has never been a problem for reefs 1 an 2. I normally use a fully batterned main with slides. However, now and again, I use a standard main with luff rope. If the sail is ever a bit sticky the motion of the boat always unfrees it rapidly. Going to windward (reef 1, and often, 2) you can reef by slacking off the main and getting cracking sharpish. Self steering of any sort is not needed as the boat will track pretty well under genoa alone. Going downwind, maybe racing, you can briefly come into the wind and do the work from just windward of a reach. The simplicity of the system makes it very quick.

3) The Contessa Deck is not strong enough to take the loads of turning blocks at the base (I suspect the decks of many keel stepped boats will be the same). Jeremy Rogers sells a deck ring for the purpose, which is secured to the mast below decks.

I have confined comment to reefs 1 and 2. I have a 3rd reef but have never used it, remember the Contessa main is tiny, it does not merit a complicated system. I would hate the additional lines in the cockpit area and prefer to keep this domain for the coloured sail equipment. A separate cockpit system for reef 3 may have some merit if you are going far offshore.
I think I would prefer simplicity. This type is a steady platform and will heave to, or continue to windward, in most conditions.

 

[jwilson]

I have sailed lots of different boats, and have never had a problem with reefing at the mast. I am almost tempted to say I prefer it when singlehanded to fighting friction in the aft-led lines. The sort of boats you are looking at will all heave to sensibly and fairly steadily, without any autohelm or self-steering use.

The big plus for single-handers is roller gear on the genoa: now that I would fit if the boat did not have it.

 

[prv]

Single line reefing means just that - one line per reef. So I can't see why you would need six lines.

Because he never mentioned having single-line reefing?

Pete

 

[charles_reed]

I've started looking at 32ft boats, probably late 60's to mid-80's (Nic 32, Contessa 32, Sadler 32, possibly Fulmar) for boat purchase for next year - probably 90% single handed sailing. Now the only one I've looked at so far is Nic 32 with tacked on in-mast, which may be a good or a bad thing (possibly both). But its more likely I will encounter slab reefing with all reefing at the mast. Now if you can totally rely on self steering (possible with redundancy) to look after the helm, sticking with that has the virtue of simplicity and reliability, especially with a stac-pac type arrangement. However, I'm a bit concerned that in conditions when really deep reefing needed, the self-steering might be challenged to keep it on the wind. (I don't have this prob with my small gaffer - you can heave to and do the main because lacing doesn't load up like slides in a track even when the sail is powered).

Which takes me on to the difficulty of retro-fitting taking lines back to the cockpit. Seems to me there are 4 issues:

1. What do you do about getting the tack cringle over the horn? - can you generate enough leverage to dispense with this?
2. Getting the lines through turning blocks, organisers and then jammers without too much friction
3. Whether the deck is strong enough to take all this (and a winch) without flexing.
4. Finding enough room to lead 6 lines and the halyard back - why 6? - well I think its crazy that with some cockpit reefing systems I've heard of, you have to go to the mast to put the 3rd reef in - probably in conditions you would least want to do that.

Any comments?

I've been single-handing for the last 22 years. the boat is 31' loa, the current mainsail 37m2, fully battened with a stackpack.

My boat has 4 reefs in the (oversize) main. The first two reefs are single-line, leading back to the cockpit. The remaining reefs are conventional jiffy reefs.

Answers to your questions: -

1. What do you do about getting the tack cringle over the horn? I use a length of 12mm braid-on-braid, through the tack-cringle and pulled down using the mast-mounted reefing winch. On the wind, unless you're superhumanly strong it is impossible to pull this down in any other manner. For another reason all the reef cringles are on a length of tape with an end ring.
2. Getting the lines through turning blocks, organisers and then jammers without too much friction? You are correct in identifying friction as your greatest source of difficulty - I get round this by using 8mm dyneema and all blocks are 60mm Harken carbo-blocks. Plain bearing pulleys and conventionally thick ropes make it impossible to overcome the frictional resistance.
3. Whether the deck is strong enough to take all this (and a winch) without flexing. The two single-line reefs are led back to the coachroof mounted Enkes winches mounted there by the builder,
with very adequate moulded in strengthening. The lines coming back to the cockpit are in two double-decker tidies of 3 lines on each level. By using blocks of jammers it is just possible to get a total of 12 jammers in the area between mainhatch and grabrail.

I think your proposition to have 6 lines for reefing alone is unfeasible - for the simple reason you will have insufficient room for lines, jammers or the resultant coils of rope - I note you are proposing to use double line reefing - this doubles your number of lines but does halve the length of reefing tails - but even my 2nd reef results in an excessive amount of line in the cockpit - for this reason as much as anything else I think you'll have to leave your 3rd reef as a normal jiffy reef.
I've been sailing in 50+ knots with a fully reefed main (I have 4 reefs compared to your 3) and can confirm that, for the few occasions I've had to put in the final reef there is no problem with going onto the coachroof (except that you get saturated).

As to the autopilot dealing with steering the boat, I've never had a problem with one of the original 4000ST tiller pilots (and that has done about 64K nautical miles). In any case it will signal to you early on that it's becoming overpressed by canvass.

I would not comment on the boats that you're listing but note that they're mostly masthead rigs with small (to me tiny) mainsails.
I would agree with another poster that a fully-battened bermuda main usually has to be dragged down unless you're head to wind

 

[Talbot]

I am fitting all mainsail lines back to the cockpit this winter. New single line reefing boom from Selden, and single line reefs for 1st and 2nd reef. 3rd reef has to be a double line reef. Then there is the clew outhaul , and the main halyard.

New winches (Evo 45s), multi clutches, and deck organisers, plus turning blocks on the mast.

A lot of rope - the giggest problem is what to do with all that rope!

 

[johnalison]

Single line should be feasible for a boat up to about 34ft, before friction becomes more of a problem. Although putting a cringe over a horn is relatively easy if you have a pair of rings at the tack, the appeal of going on deck diminishes as you get older. My original-equipment Selden reefing has been trouble-free for over ten years with polyester lines and only needs winching for final tensioning, though pulling out a reef is less easy and it is easier if I draw the lines out of the clew.

For what it is worth, a mate of ours bought a Nic 32 with a bolted-on in-mast reefing main. He managed to remove it and sold it for a considerable sum on EBay.

 

[DJE]

A lot of rope - the giggest problem is what to do with all that rope!

These help:- http://www.jimmygreen.co.uk/item/6342/sea-sure-rope-tidy-hooks

 

[NigelCraig]

I didn't mention single line reefing because, although I've heard of it, I don't know how it works - in fact my only personal experience is slab reefing at the mast or in mast reefing. Good point about masthead rigs - I'm relying on tiller between my legs or autotacking giving me time to get the genoa sheets sorted before being fully powered up. If I found this was not working very well might lcheck out Solent stay arrangement for upwind sailing. Only fractional rig on my possible list is the Fulmar about which I am ambivalent.

 

[davidej]

Ok - I didn't read the OP carefully enough but single line reefing is often considered the answer to anyone who does not go up to the mast.

Google it -it is cheap simple and effective - the only drawback (IMHO) is the very long pennants needed for the deeper reefs which (in my case) find themselves on the cockpit floor.

 

[Blueboatman]

Been asked on here recently ( Boo2?) but I would strongly suggest fitting a gas/spring vang and a self tailing cockpit halyard winch or two, the rest is just engineering details and choices/paring away what you thought you need but actually dont really..) IMO and IME of course

 

[Slowtack]

I am now in my 8th season with three two-line reefs on a 33 foot boat with fractional rig - fairly big sail. The tack pennants have blocks, the tack lines are tied off to the boom, up thru the blocks, back down to turning blocks and deck organiser, back to clutches in the cockpit. No significant friction issues. Bags for tidying the lines. I frequently sail single handed, no problems so far.