Advice on stack pack

[Seajet]

I know the Octopus and can only agree, also re the crossover to lazyjacks being vagely useful above 26'; I tried them on my 22', for about 5 minutes !

I suspect a lot of the people finding lazyjacks handy are novices who haven't been shown traditional sail taming and handling.

I'm not trying to make myself out to be a square rigger old salt, but I do think stackpacks are a solution looking for a problem invented by sailmakers as something to sell, and their windage is going to be a problem for each owner, some day.

The temptation to leave the whole gubbins on for the winter as it's hassle to remove resulting in requirements for new sails is another money spinner !

 

[Tranona]

Vyv,

Any more excellent ideas before I borrow the above for the spec of ours?

My new stack pack is much the same as Vyv's, unsurprising as it also Kemps. However my boat now has a loose footed main and the boom is wooden with a track for slides and external reefing lines. So the cover is open at the bottom for the last 2/3 of the foot for reefing lines to come through and has slides so it is mounted on the track. One of the benefits of going to a good sailmaker is that you can discuss your requirements in detail and have the features you want. This new one replaces a 20 year old one, also Kemps, which was made when such things were just coming on the market. The original was good but the new one hopefully improves on those things that were not so good.

 

[Tranona]

I know the Octopus and can only agree, also re the crossover to lazyjacks being vagely useful above 26'; I tried them on my 22', for about 5 minutes !

I suspect a lot of the people finding lazyjacks handy are novices who haven't been shown traditional sail taming and handling.

I'm not trying to make myself out to be a square rigger old salt, but I do think stackpacks are a solution looking for a problem invented by sailmakers as something to sell, and their windage is going to be a problem for each owner, some day.

The temptation to leave the whole gubbins on for the winter as it's hassle to remove resulting in requirements for new sails is another money spinner !

Think you will find that most people buy a stack pack to overcome the "traditional sail taming and handling PROBLEMS". Don't get this supposed "windage" problem. There is no more exposed area of a stack pack than there is of a sail flaked on the boom when it is down and when the sail is up the area is covered by the sail. If you are worried about the small amount of sail area on the foot that is inside the pack then have straps to hold the pack against the boom when sailing.

Why do you think that people are incapable of deciding for themselves whether something is of value or not? This is clearly a product that many people value - are they all wrong?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Why do you think that people are incapable of deciding for themselves whether something is of value or not? This is clearly a product that many people value - are they all wrong?

The sail-cover part of a stackpack offers sail handling advantages and the lazyjacks part offers disadvantages. It's just a matter of whether the former outweigh the latter. On Andy's 22-footer they don't (for him). On my 26-footer it's marginal (for me). The system clearly doesn't work for everyone.

 

[Tranona]

The sail-cover part of a stackpack offers sail handling advantages and the lazyjacks part offers disadvantages. It's just a matter of whether the former outweigh the latter. On Andy's 22-footer they don't (for him). On my 26-footer it's marginal (for me). The system clearly doesn't work for everyone.

That's the whole point - individuals can make up their own mind about whether there is value or not.

The stack pack I have just had made is for my 26' Eventide. I endured 12 years of "traditional sail taming and handling problems" until Rob Kemp persuaded me that his then new product was a good idea to go with the lovely new sails he made me. Over 20 years later, still one of my better decisions. Just like the in mast main on my Bavaria, once you get the hang of using the lazy jacks properly, they really are not a problem. The changes I had made to the new one will hopefully overcome the minor irritations of the old one, mainly the way it was attached to the boom and the attachment points of the lazy jacks.

 

[GrahamM376]

The sail-cover part of a stackpack offers sail handling advantages and the lazyjacks part offers disadvantages. It's just a matter of whether the former outweigh the latter. On Andy's 22-footer they don't (for him). On my 26-footer it's marginal (for me). The system clearly doesn't work for everyone.

Didn't have stack pack or lazyjacks on Centaur or Berwick but the 346 came with one. Current 376 (38ft) had traditional cover but when that was past sell-by date I made a stack pack. Slightly different to usual, it's split in two with each side attached in a bolt rope track on sides of boom so no friction when using sail outhaul and either sail or stack pack can be removed independently. Used uncoated fabric so moisture not trapped in. Very occasional hoisting problem by far outweighed by stowing when dropping, helm no longer buried under sail and reefing lines which shorthanded was a pain. I can drop the lines back to the mast if I want but never see the need.

 

[vyv_cox]

I suspect a lot of the people finding lazyjacks handy are novices who haven't been shown traditional sail taming and handling.

I agree entirely. After almost 60 years of sailing I am looking forward to the day when I am no longer a novice.

Where our new stackpack has really made a big difference is in the big lumpy windless seas of the Aegean. Astonishing how often we will be sailing in a nice breeze, only to be becalmed five minutes later. Previously we could lower the sail into the lazyjacks but it always required one of us to go on the coachroof to tie three or four sailties around the boom. Ours is a very heavily built Vectran mainsail that would rarely drop cleanly and will never flake. With the stackpack the sail will drop almost by itself and needs no ties, making the operation considerably less risky.

There is actually less windage with the stackpack than there was with the old cover, with which the sail needed to drape quite a long way below the boom.

 

[Daydream believer]

Vyv,

Any more excellent ideas before I borrow the above for the spec of ours?

Start the zip from the mast so you can hold on while doing it up. If you have it on the outer end you have to lower the sail , tuck it in the cover then go aft & catch a swinging boom to locate the zip then work forward again. My wife was nearly knocked overboard tying to catch a swinging boom whilst standing on the cockpit seats to reach
Plus starting from the mast you get a lot in quick & can zip the last bit later
For rough weather I have a string with a ball on one flap & a loop on the other ( 4 sets in all). i can stuff the sail in to the cover & with one hand do the ball & loop up (like a duffel coat). It takes the tension off the zip which is easier to do up
My cover is in 2 parts. The main cover & a separate bit for the front round the mast. This reduces the amount of flapping cloth. Plus I tend not to fit the front if only stopping for a night
View attachment 48547

 

[Seajet]

My chum's Centaur stackpack ( by Arun if there's any difference though I have tried others ) most definitely offers a lot more windage than the flaked main, to the extent that in a really serious blow I can imagine one might have to get the lot off the boom, much more of a pain than just a sail to tie down tight.

Like roller headsails I suspect, handy most of the time but a real problem in severe conditions; however a helluva lot of boats get away with roller headsails and not even any provision for a storm jib, so if a gambler the odds seem to be with them...

 

[gregcope]

Start the zip from the mast so you can hold on while doing it up. If you have it on the outer end you have to lower the sail , tuck it in the cover then go aft & catch a swinging boom to locate the zip then work forward again. My wife was nearly knocked overboard tying to catch a swinging boom whilst standing on the cockpit seats to reach
Plus starting from the mast you get a lot in quick & can zip the last bit later
For rough weather I have a string with a ball on one flap & a loop on the other ( 4 sets in all). i can stuff the sail in to the cover & with one hand do the ball & loop up (like a duffel coat). It takes the tension off the zip which is easier to do up
My cover is in 2 parts. The main cover & a separate bit for the front round the mast. This reduces the amount of flapping cloth. Plus I tend not to fit the front if only stopping for a night
View attachment 48547

Thanks.

Will have to think on the start zip location, as my sail is quite high at the bow/mast end, due to sail size and quite a few full length battens.

 

[JumbleDuck]

My chum's Centaur stackpack ( by Arun if there's any difference though I have tried others ) most definitely offers a lot more windage than the flaked main, to the extent that in a really serious blow I can imagine one might have to get the lot off the boom, much more of a pain than just a sail to tie down tight.

Odd. My stackpack squidges down the sail good and tight.

 

[knuterikt]

I have 38 foot boat,

I have flaked main sails many times without lazy jack/bag, but flaking the main alone one on my boat with a little wind is not tempting at all.
I use my sails more often with the lazy bag in place.

If I was concerned about wind I can easily ease the lazy jacks and tie some sail straps on the outside, but is have not been an issue so far

Good design ideas stolen from mine
I have loose footed main and track in the boom

Front bottom of the bag is mesh - water out air in.
Luff tape along the bottom
Aft part is without mesh but webbing with slugs at intervals along the boom - easy to get reef lines around the boom.

I also have a separate front cover

I can ease the lazy jacks and roll the cover into a sausage secure along the boom - not much used but easy to make.

I tried a new way of rigging the lazy jacks (4 each side) last summer - seems to be an improvement, think I can find some pictures.

 

[prv]

you have to lower the sail , tuck it in the cover then go aft & catch a swinging boom to locate the zip then work forward again. My wife was nearly knocked overboard tying to catch a swinging boom whilst standing on the cockpit seats to reach

Why would you not strap it in tight with the mainsheet once the sail is down?

I can see the point about the zip starting at the forward end though. With a boom that's high above the cockpit it can be difficult to reach and start the zip even though the boom isn't swinging. I let it down on the topping lift nowadays to do that and it's manageable (the first few times before I figured that out, I was balancing precariously with one foot on the coaming and one on the binnacle!) but doing it at the mast would be easier. I wonder if there's some non-obvious reason why they usually start the zip at the clew?

Pete

 

[Grumpybear]

Why would you not strap it in tight with the mainsheet once the sail is down?

I can see the point about the zip starting at the forward end though. With a boom that's high above the cockpit it can be difficult to reach and start the zip even though the boom isn't swinging. I let it down on the topping lift nowadays to do that and it's manageable (the first few times before I figured that out, I was balancing precariously with one foot on the coaming and one on the binnacle!) but doing it at the mast would be easier. I wonder if there's some non-obvious reason why they usually start the zip at the clew?

Pete

Probably because that's how the very first one ever was built, and it was copied and copied and so on. The original cover on our boat came like that, and the man who made the replacement seemed a little bewildered that I actually wanted to change something!

 

[Tranona]

Probably because that's how the very first one ever was built, and it was copied and copied and so on. The original cover on our boat came like that, and the man who made the replacement seemed a little bewildered that I actually wanted to change something!

Think you might be right there. However, it is not necessarily a problem depending on how low the boom is. I can see the advantage of having the zip start at the mast end if the boom and sail is high as on some modern boats as it is easier to reach. However, as Pete says it makes sense to strap the boom in tight, just as you would if flaking a loose sail onto the boom.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

Is a 'stackpack' any more than lazy jacks with a built in sail cover?

Yes

 

[LittleSister]

Is a 'stackpack' any more than lazy jacks with a built in sail cover?

Yes

Go on.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

Go on.

Yes it really is

 

[Daydream believer]

If I sheet the boom in it still waves about a bit as it is still hanging on the topping lift. Ok in light weather but I have been in too many gales to want to make it harder.
If I pull the mainsheet in hard & the topping lift let go for some reason ( ie kick the jammer when working on deck) then the boom would crash down (possibly on someones head if i had a crew). Also to reach the boom end one has to stand up on the cockpit seats on my boat. I had one crew who engaged the zip, lost his balance, kept hold of the zip & ripped it off. hence the moving of zip to the front when i got the new zip.
Normally after getting the dropped sail under control I try to hook the boom end onto a short line on the backstay to control the swing & when i do this I wrap myself around the backstay for security. I slacken the backstay, hook on, tighten the backstay.- boom held tight & cannot drop

I find it odd that people find lazy jacks a problem. I just head just off the wind to get the boom to swing slightly to port to miss my head when I am winching the halliard & up she goes. When dropping the sail comes down in a flash & does not droop everywhere. i can get on with other jobs until I get the sail stowed in the cover.

But in the end it is each to his own -one does not have to do it my way. I know after a few thousand miles of single handing what works for me -but if others do it differently I can live with that

 

[xeitosaphil]

I am obviously using mine wrongly as I don’t free the mainsheet and let it loose to flail about?

I have a loose footed, fully battened main, with 4 battens, stack pack and lazy jacks.

The font section of the bag is seperate, fitting around the mast with a zip full length in height to join the two halves of the front section together around mast, and strings around the aft section to close it up
.
I also sail single handed, 30 footer, so easy hoist and fall is essential.

When I am ready to hoist, I tighten mainsheet so boom is steady-open zip on stack pack bring boat head to wind and hoist making sure boat is always head to wind with mainsail always centre of gap between lazy jacks. If it means waiting between any small gusts or boat wanders before fully hoisting main. Once the first two battens are up past lazy jacks the rest of the main and batten ends are clear of the lazy jack ropes so not a problem with the rest of the hoist.
When dropping the main it’s a reverse of the hoist. I take up the topping lift harden down the mainsheet or there abouts to make it reasonably steady, turn head to wind and drop, sail goes straight in the bag no problems, I go forward to drop Main halyard around a cleat on the mast so it can’t creep back up the mast, go back to the cockpit and harden up main halyard. I can then pack away at my leisure.
With the mainsheet hard down and the boom steady relatively amidships I stand on the cockpit seats grab the boom end where the zip is closed for the first 6” prior to stowing rest of sail and closing zip at the same time.

Obviously I am only one of the many " Novices " and still have a lot to learn, but this works for me!

Lazy Jack and Stack pack Spec
Sail cover/Bag is basically square box shape. Centre of the bottom is fitted with a bolt rope which fits in the boom and stops short of the Outhaul. Sail bag Zip runs full length from mast to outhaul and beyond, 6” past end of sail bag Aft. Top of bag has Full length battens stitched into bag sides one each side. Outside of bag at batten height is stitched four loops for Lazy Jack ropes.

Cross section of Stack Pack Bag below

Forgot to mention, there are two zipped sections each side, at the bottom of the bag aft, to allow for entrance and exit of three sets of reefing lines.