Fantasie 19
Well-Known Member
...but irrespective of all the above - please let us know what happens! 
Advice on purchase required
- Thread starter Simon054
- Start date
oilyrag
Well-Known Member
Have you signed a sale agreement and paid a deposit?
It all depends (as ever!) on what stage you are at. If you have made an offer which has been accepted and paid a deposit you are bound by the terms of that contract and you must complete the sale in accordance with that agreement or forfeit your deposit.
A standard contract states very clearly how you can proceed if the survey turns up any nasties.
In summary, any sale subject to survey would allow for re-negotiation only if the survey reveals hidden defects that you as a layman could not have reasonably detected on inspecting the boat.
Some brokers specifically exclude standing rigging replacement as this is a 'service' item and your insurers will almost certainly require you to replace rigging more than 10 years old as a condition of cover.
Therefore, read the sale contract carefully and your position should be clear.
If you have not signed a contract then you are in a stronger position to attempt renegotiations.
It all depends (as ever!) on what stage you are at. If you have made an offer which has been accepted and paid a deposit you are bound by the terms of that contract and you must complete the sale in accordance with that agreement or forfeit your deposit.
A standard contract states very clearly how you can proceed if the survey turns up any nasties.
In summary, any sale subject to survey would allow for re-negotiation only if the survey reveals hidden defects that you as a layman could not have reasonably detected on inspecting the boat.
Some brokers specifically exclude standing rigging replacement as this is a 'service' item and your insurers will almost certainly require you to replace rigging more than 10 years old as a condition of cover.
Therefore, read the sale contract carefully and your position should be clear.
If you have not signed a contract then you are in a stronger position to attempt renegotiations.
Manuel
N/A
Simon, at the end of the day, do you want to buy a yacht?
If so, does this one scream 'buy me'? If not walk away, you won't have any trouble getting your deposit back from a reputable broker (one of the big benefits of using a reputable broker).
If you like this yacht and want to buy it you will have to settle on some figure. I don't think anyone can tell you what that is, especially in a recession. You can try to screw the owner down if you think he is struggling to pay marinas and insurance. Most of us don't feel comfortable doing that but most of us are not millionaires. Most millionaires would screw the last halfpenny. Your choice.
In particular you asked for 'sane advice'. Revisit the whole idea of buying a boat. Sometimes we need to stand back from major decisions like boat ownership and have a complete re-think. You have learnt a lot. Maybe wait a year, follow the forums and the press, sail with friends?
SmileyGiley
Well-Known Member
I'd ask him to replace the rigging That's an easy job for him to do quite a lot cheaper than it will cost you.
There are probably other minor issues that the surveyor came up with & I bet you've glossed over then as you see the rigging as the big problem. If you're happy with the price you offered, tell him to fix the rigging at his cost (he knew it needed doing) and you'll carry the burden of the myriad little jobs that would be expensive for him to fix coz it's mostly time.
Bet you that if you price up 'all the other things' and 'the rigging' they'll come to the same price to fix if you paid someone. So, you will save money by doing all the little (and not so little jobs) jobs and he'll save money by doing this one big job.
Bet you a beer it'll work!
10% of asking price (unless it's a sought after model) is (probably) not a massive discount. As far as the rigging is concerned (or any other defect) I don't think he's obliged to tell you anything. He's obliged to answer honestly if you ask him. Did you ask him if the rigging was duff? Did you ask him if the engine was in fair condition? He was expecting to come down quite a bit. then a bit more.
There are probably other minor issues that the surveyor came up with & I bet you've glossed over then as you see the rigging as the big problem. If you're happy with the price you offered, tell him to fix the rigging at his cost (he knew it needed doing) and you'll carry the burden of the myriad little jobs that would be expensive for him to fix coz it's mostly time.
Bet you that if you price up 'all the other things' and 'the rigging' they'll come to the same price to fix if you paid someone. So, you will save money by doing all the little (and not so little jobs) jobs and he'll save money by doing this one big job.
Bet you a beer it'll work!
10% of asking price (unless it's a sought after model) is (probably) not a massive discount. As far as the rigging is concerned (or any other defect) I don't think he's obliged to tell you anything. He's obliged to answer honestly if you ask him. Did you ask him if the rigging was duff? Did you ask him if the engine was in fair condition? He was expecting to come down quite a bit. then a bit more.
Last edited:
jonic
Well-Known Member
Most surveyors will imediately recommend replacement rigging if it is 10 yrs old or more. But it is not compulsory. With 10% off already 50/50 would be a reasonable deal. (I'm a broker).
Edit: Sorry just re-read further down the thread and have seen that the rigging may be damaged. You could try for replacement but I suspect as you are buying a second hand boat and would then have the benefit of new rigging at 10% less than the original second hand asking price, 50/50 would be a good compromise. It will depend on the brokers circumstances and how much he has tied up in the boat. Speak to your surveyor too and ask his advice.
As another poster has stated if the broker owns the boat and it is being sold in the course of business then the Sale of goods act applies. Section 14 entitles the Consumer to goods that are of satisfactory quality, that is they should meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description, the price (if relevant) and other relevant circumstances.
There is liability exemption where defects are brought to the buyer‟s notice or where the buyer examines the goods pre contract and the defects are such that the examination would show them.
S.14 States that the goods must be reasonably fit for purpose.
These rights in relation to satisfactory quality and fitness for purpose apply both to new and secondhand goods. However Satisfactory quality in terms of secondhand goods will be judged less rigorously than new goods.
The above is a very abridged version, the RYA have some excellent leaflets and advice on these matters, but it all gets a little "grey area" when it's second hand old rigging with discounts already factored in and one surveyors subjective report etc, etc.
Talk to the surveyor, talk to the broker and try to get a good compromise, but of course the broker may feel the price and discount already reflects the condition of the boat.
I should say this is just general information and not advice as I am not party to the full circumstances. Perhaps a conversation with the RYA would be a good next step. Best of luck.
Edit: Sorry just re-read further down the thread and have seen that the rigging may be damaged. You could try for replacement but I suspect as you are buying a second hand boat and would then have the benefit of new rigging at 10% less than the original second hand asking price, 50/50 would be a good compromise. It will depend on the brokers circumstances and how much he has tied up in the boat. Speak to your surveyor too and ask his advice.
As another poster has stated if the broker owns the boat and it is being sold in the course of business then the Sale of goods act applies. Section 14 entitles the Consumer to goods that are of satisfactory quality, that is they should meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description, the price (if relevant) and other relevant circumstances.
There is liability exemption where defects are brought to the buyer‟s notice or where the buyer examines the goods pre contract and the defects are such that the examination would show them.
S.14 States that the goods must be reasonably fit for purpose.
These rights in relation to satisfactory quality and fitness for purpose apply both to new and secondhand goods. However Satisfactory quality in terms of secondhand goods will be judged less rigorously than new goods.
The above is a very abridged version, the RYA have some excellent leaflets and advice on these matters, but it all gets a little "grey area" when it's second hand old rigging with discounts already factored in and one surveyors subjective report etc, etc.
Talk to the surveyor, talk to the broker and try to get a good compromise, but of course the broker may feel the price and discount already reflects the condition of the boat.
I should say this is just general information and not advice as I am not party to the full circumstances. Perhaps a conversation with the RYA would be a good next step. Best of luck.
Last edited:
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The constant reference to "broker" in this thread is misleading. If the vendor owns the boat he is a trader. He may well also act as a broker in other transactions but in this case as Ionic has laid out in detail he is bound by the Sale of Goods act. If the boat has a defect he has to repair it - in just the same way as a second hand car dealer. To take this analogy further if you had an engineer check over a car after you had agreed a price and he found 2 tyres that were illegal, you would expect the dealer to replace them.
All the other comments about discount and recession are irrelevant. The OP has agreed a price and the vendor has to supply a satisfactory boat at that price.
All the other comments about discount and recession are irrelevant. The OP has agreed a price and the vendor has to supply a satisfactory boat at that price.
jonic
Well-Known Member
But the crucial thing to remember here is that no actual sale has taken place yet as it was subject to survey.
lw395
Well-Known Member
If wanting new standing rigging is the biggest defect, you've probably found a good boat.
When that is renewed, then it's value/saleability/ease of insurance will be increased for say 3-5 years, so if you have to contribute some of the cost of the rigging, do not feel you have 'lost'. You should not need to replace it again for about 10 years.
At this time of year, any sale is a good sale up to a point, so I would politely tender a revised offer, so that the vendor effectively paid for the bulk of the work.
That was fine by me when I sold my boat.
Compromise a little and get a good boat at a fair price.
My understanding of the deposit thing is not too firm, but if the vendor was to remedy all defects beyond quibbling, then if you backed out you could lose the deposit. In reality it does not come to that because there is usually a defect or two that is arguable whether it's ever as good as new when fixed, so the buyer can wriggle out and get his deposit back. Or the buyer may say that the time taken to fix it would be unacceptable. If it really comes to this, spend a little on a solicitor familiar with these things rather than taking advice from the forum.
When that is renewed, then it's value/saleability/ease of insurance will be increased for say 3-5 years, so if you have to contribute some of the cost of the rigging, do not feel you have 'lost'. You should not need to replace it again for about 10 years.
At this time of year, any sale is a good sale up to a point, so I would politely tender a revised offer, so that the vendor effectively paid for the bulk of the work.
That was fine by me when I sold my boat.
Compromise a little and get a good boat at a fair price.
My understanding of the deposit thing is not too firm, but if the vendor was to remedy all defects beyond quibbling, then if you backed out you could lose the deposit. In reality it does not come to that because there is usually a defect or two that is arguable whether it's ever as good as new when fixed, so the buyer can wriggle out and get his deposit back. Or the buyer may say that the time taken to fix it would be unacceptable. If it really comes to this, spend a little on a solicitor familiar with these things rather than taking advice from the forum.
gerry99
Well-Known Member
Simon I had an identical situation when I purchased my yacht. I negotiated a reduction in price for the cost of the works identified by the surveyor. from memory it was not 100% but it was great than 50% I guess at the end of the day it is a matter of judgement and doing a reasonable deal with the vendor. Good luck i hope it all goes well for you
Simon054
Well-Known Member
Following on from all the good advice I have already received, I have copied the broker (trader) the survey, he suggested a local rigger to check the rig and said he would ask him to visit. With this in mind I contacted the same rigger to get a budget estimate for the works, which was a very ish price of £1400. The rigger has contacted me (by mistake and to my good fortune, he should have informed the broker first) having now viewed the rig and has stated he believes it should be replaced also which confirms the survey report and gave a replacement costs of £1200 not allowing for stepping the mast.
There are other snags in the report however these are quite minor and can be easily be repaired the rigging is the big one. Hopefully I will be able to negotiate with them over the weekend and will let you know how I get on.
There are other snags in the report however these are quite minor and can be easily be repaired the rigging is the big one. Hopefully I will be able to negotiate with them over the weekend and will let you know how I get on.
haydude
Well-Known Member
No, they can't. If he made an offer it is intended for a boat ready to sail. Sailing a boat without replacing the standing rigging as a surveyor recommended can be DANGEROUS, therefore the boat is not in the condition expected.
I recommend to get an estimate to replace the standing rigging and re-negotiate the price on the basis of that. Bear in mind that you cannot take off the whole replacment cost, because standing rigging can last a decade and you will end up with a new installation. I would negotiate on 40-50% of the rigging cost off.
If it is a really good price, just buy the bullet instead. Sooner or later you would have to replace the rigging. Unless one plans to sell just before having to do that.
Observer
Well-Known Member
Some good advice above but here are a few confirmations and corrections.
1. "Subject to survey" does not mean you can walk away unless there is a very material defect that cannot be remedied. The seller is obliged to remedy any defects identified by the survey or agree a price reduction.
2. As Tranona said, the reference to broker is misleading. The seller is a trader acting in the course of a business so has ordinary Sale of Goods Act liability
3. "Fitness for purpose" does not come into play on the basis of what you've said. "Satisfactory quality" does.
4. It is a used boat and you would expect it to have used rigging. As mentioned by others, if the rigging is renewed at the seller's cost you will end with a better deal than you bargained for (new rigging). So shared cost is a sensible compromise and 50/50 is the obvious starting point.
1. "Subject to survey" does not mean you can walk away unless there is a very material defect that cannot be remedied. The seller is obliged to remedy any defects identified by the survey or agree a price reduction.
2. As Tranona said, the reference to broker is misleading. The seller is a trader acting in the course of a business so has ordinary Sale of Goods Act liability
3. "Fitness for purpose" does not come into play on the basis of what you've said. "Satisfactory quality" does.
4. It is a used boat and you would expect it to have used rigging. As mentioned by others, if the rigging is renewed at the seller's cost you will end with a better deal than you bargained for (new rigging). So shared cost is a sensible compromise and 50/50 is the obvious starting point.
Simon054
Well-Known Member
All,
Thanks for all the good advice. The broker made me an offer to reduce the sale price of the Yacht by the cost of the rigging £1500.00, however this was to also include the other items detailed on the report which although a resonable offer meant I had to arrange all the repairs. I counted his offer by increasing the my offer on the Yacht by half the cost of the rigging with the condition that all the jobs are carried out by him. They have accepted my offer, all the works will be covered by guarantees and the Yacht has a 3 month warranty with it.
The forum advice has been excellent thanks again.
Simon
Thanks for all the good advice. The broker made me an offer to reduce the sale price of the Yacht by the cost of the rigging £1500.00, however this was to also include the other items detailed on the report which although a resonable offer meant I had to arrange all the repairs. I counted his offer by increasing the my offer on the Yacht by half the cost of the rigging with the condition that all the jobs are carried out by him. They have accepted my offer, all the works will be covered by guarantees and the Yacht has a 3 month warranty with it.
The forum advice has been excellent thanks again.
Simon