Advice on choosing a windlass, Lofrans X2, Lewmar VX2+, etc.

[Mikko M]

Mikko,

Have you actually costed the whole of this project? Given that you have an existing manual windlass you're likely to need to cost in maybe an additional battery and the copper wire to connect up to your charging system. In addition to the actual windlass you are also having to price in new anchor rode (in whatever chain / arp mix you choose). If you really want to reduce the weight of the rode I'd suggest removing some of you existing chain and replacing with suitable warp.

Neeves,

A child could use my manual windlass too.

Well, i have some idea of the total costs - but as usual it will be more expensive that i'd like to admit. I am however installing a 3kW bow thruster and the windlass could use the same, large battery, i think. I will be installing two VSR's to be able to charge battery banks without having to manually engage charging of the house or thruster/windlass batteries.

Chain is also expensive, and in addition to new chain i will be buying a new main anchor too. I haven't yet made up my mind what it would be, but Spade, both Rocna-models as well as Mantus all seem to enjoy a reasonable reputation. Galvanized Spade might be the best bet, perhaps...

In Baltic having a rode with chain and rope is quite popular. Perhaps that is partly because we haven't got coral over here. Having a lighter rope-chain rode for normal day-to-day anchoring and storing a longer length of anchor chain deep in the bilge sounds a good idea in theory, but i have a feeling that if i needed to quickly change over to all-chain rode in a bad weather, it would prove to be painful.

 

[Star-Lord]

Anchor tests!

 

[Mikko M]

I had a Lofrans Royal manual windlass many years ago. It was incredibly slow to recover chain and anchor, so much so that I rarely used it, pulling chain in by hand. No way I could do that now thanks to age and back trouble.

I also had a smaller sailboat some years ago with Lofrans Royal. Never had any trouble with it, although i did not anchor much. I remember using that windlass mainly for breaking the anchor from bottom, and then pulling the rode in by hand, since there was not that much weight to haul in. Royal is quite slow as it only has one speed, and it is understandably geared for pulling power, not so much for speed.

 

[Muddy32]

Don't restrict your use for pulling up chain and anchor. I use my warping drum more often for lots of uses, saving my back and age related problems.

 

[martinaskey]

I bought a Quick vdertical windlass about 5 years ago.
Good price, easy to install, seems well engineered.
Never had any problems and a very good additon to the boat.
(8mm chain. 9te wooden boat)
M

 

[Neeves]

Mikko,

G8 or G80 are one and the same, G8 and G80 are the same internationally. The 8 or 80 commonly refers the the strength of the steel (or the steel after is has been processed to make the chain) in 100s of MPa. So G8 or G80 refers to a chain with a link whose wire strength is a minimum of 800 MPa. Its a simple calculation then to develop minimum tensile strengths (its simply arithmetic).

This is the simple answer.

The strongest grade I know of, for chain, is a G120. To achieve this the chain makes uses a thicker wire, so - say - he is making an 8mm chain he actually uses 8.8mm diameter wire. The link is the same size as an 8mm chain, but being made from a thicker wire the internal dimensions are different. In many applications this does not matter.

Peerless make what they call a G70 chain for use in the anchor rode but when they galvanise it the strength is negatively impacted and the end result is about a G55.

But these are the exceptions.

AFAIK all metric chain is manufactured to a 1:4 safety factor (so WLL are 25% of min tensile strength and proof loads are half MTS) Americans use different safety factors for different chain, 3:1 for G43 and G70 (these are 'transport' chains, typing logs to trucks) and 4:1 for most or all of the others. Oddly Maggi's G70 had a safety factor of 5:1, I think they made it from a G100 raw stock - the heat of the galvanising retempered the chain and negatively impacted strength).

Metric chain, sayy 6mm, is all then same link size whether G80 or G100. The only exception is 10mm which has 2 link sizes - and the 2 chains need different gypsies, ISO and DIN. American chains, BBB, G30, G43/70 are all different links sizes tho nominally all defined as say, 5/16th"

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I would recommend this 8mm chain 8mm DIN766 Titan Grade 43 Calibrated Anchor Chain this company delivers world wide. 80m should be sufficient if worried about weight.

I may well be wrong but G43 is an imperial chain made in imperial sizes (inches - or fractions of). There is no reason why a chain maker could not use a 430 MPa wire and make a metric chain - but it would be unique (as far as I know). The 'nearest' metric chain would be a G40 quality. G43 chain is made to a 3:1 safety factor and looks really attractive vs metric G40 made to a 4:1 safety factor as the G43 WLL is soooo much higher than the metric G40 - but this is an arithmetic fudge. If you look at the Min Tensile Strengths they reflect the strength of the wire used 430 MPa instead of 400 MPa.

Though 5/16th" is nominally similar to 8mm the chain link dimensions are totally different and 5/16th" chain will not fit a 8mm gypsy.

I have noticed that some chain makers emphasis WLL, or simply omit MTS), on their spread sheets - buyer beware.

Finally - Most Europeans have been using a G30 quality for decades. Recent instances of chain failure have been absent. G30 made and sized correctly seems to be the 'correct' strength. There is a migration (particularly in America) to G43 and to a lesser extend G40 in Europe. There is nothing wrong with increasing safety - but in terms of chain life - the galvanising is the rate controlling characteristic and its as good, or bad on G30 as G40 or G43.

edit I have noted that the Titan chain referred to, made by CMP under their Titan brand is a true metric chain, but to a unique quality and unique safety factor (for G43) of 4:1

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I use Maxwell RC8-8 and Mantus swivel medium size stronger than 10mm chain.

There have been reports on CF of a number of instances of the failure of the wire used to tie the Mantus swivel together. It merits checking, constantly.

Anchor makers have gone to great lengths to thin down the shank of their anchors to allow efficient and effective setting. Adding a Mantus swivel, which is huge, will detract from anchor performance. The swivel will not work under tension, unless you have a large number of twists in your rode and will not swivel if the chain is on the seabed. It will work if you poke your anchor with a broom handle just before it gets to the bow roller.

Better to have Boomerang made

How to boomerang your anchor right back at you - MySailing.com.au

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Chain is also expensive, and in addition to new chain i will be buying a new main anchor too. I haven't yet made up my mind what it would be, but Spade, both Rocna-models as well as Mantus all seem to enjoy a reasonable reputation. Galvanized Spade might be the best bet, perhaps...

You are looking at windlass have that have retrieval speeds, load data, current draw all specified. You are looking critically at those G numbers, the strength of the wire from which the chain is made.

Why would you consider buying anchors that have no holding capacity data available to allow comparison and basically the only data is from individuals who have stuck their necks out (would you admit to buying a lemon?) or from the manufacturers. Most individual comments are, at best, subjective and often ill informed and the manufacturers are, well - trying to sell anchors.

There are plenty of anchors that have been tested and many independently tested, Rocna, Supreme, Kobra, Spade, Excel, Knox, Ultra.

There is no prefect anchor, nor windlass, all compromise somewhere and part of the compromise is money (usually not having enough to share around )

If you are happy based on no data - I'd simply buy the cheapest chain, windlass and anchor available.

Jonathan

 

[Star-Lord]

The beast that is the Maxwell RC8-8 has a wave gypsy and accepts both 8mm and 5/16th chain.

Regarding 8mm and 5/16 chain it is possible to order non Maggi 5/16 chain in UK. Jimmy Green was prepared to order me 5/16 from Titan. This could have been a Aqua 7 compromise... The 5/16 seems to be basically near as possible 9mm. Unfortunately some anchor lockers can not take 10mm and some boats can not take the weight.

The Mantus swivel has been totally excellent and is highly recommended. It has been proven in the field by many well known YouTube sailing channels. And it works perfectly to reduce chain twist when spending a long time at anchor. Also the re set issue seems logical (I am no engineer) but in practice I can confirm it works well (perfectly) with a Spade. Sometime theorising is no experience for hands on experience. I used to have a Kong with a few links of chain and a couple of shackles (so set up correctly thanks to this forum!) but it didn't take me long, and I should have realised sooner, the Kong was the weak point in Aqua 7 chain. The Mantus is stronger than 8mm Aqua 7 and is rated for 10mm chain.

Before anchor swivels I used a very big shackle and suffered dramatic chain twist - which can obviously weeken the chain. I do not know how the Mantus works but I suspect as you drop the anchor the anchor does not swivel or does not swivel as much as a non swivelled anchor which will swivel like crazy all the way down and obviously the deeper the more it will swivel. And when retrieving the anchor it will unswivell on the way up. I do not believe any swivel works to unswivell the anchor when at anchor (not raising or lowering) but maybe after doing a bunch of 360's and there is a strong blow and chains go tight maybe just maybe there may be some un-swivel in progress?

As for the seizing wire it is easy to check and comprises two separate doubled pieces. I agree its not the best swivel like the Kong but it is the strongest. So until the design is refined or upgraded it does the job (it is strong and protects windlass and chain from twist) and I sleep easy.

I do have a theory about anchor twist and the windlass!

Do people with Lofrans above deck windlass suffer from anchor twist?

My first windlass was a old underpowered SL Sprint windlass that worked well missing quite a few parts (until one part too many) and I can not remember chain twist to be a problem but this was before anchoring for long periods.

Maybe these modern underdeck windlass are so fast they do not give chain time to de twist?

There is obviously a perfect all round anchor!! And it does not have a hoop ? but I believe the ubiquitous and cheap Delta anchors by Lewmar are a reasonable compromise. That video S/V Panope needs to be watched! I believe it comes down to two choices depending on the aesthetic design of your boat

P. S. Any links to Mantus Swivel failure much appreciated.

 

[Star-Lord]

Also regarding Mantus anchor swivel...
Because of the way it is shaped and because I have a well sized Teflon (8mm grooved) roller the anchor has yet to come up backwards. Everytime it slips over the roller and the anchor rights itself correctly which was a unexpected benefit!! With the Kong there was always a bit of motoring astern before anchor could stow nicely. Thinking about it I am almost certain the Rocna (I used a 20 and 25kg a year each) always came up correctly attached to just a shackle (10/10) or in other words brute force righted it so you have to be careful with controls. The Kong however worked better with the Rocna than the Spade because the vast majority of the time the Rocna attached to Kong always stowed nicely / was able to right itself without faffing around.

 

[Mikko M]

You are looking at windlass have that have retrieval speeds, load data, current draw all specified. You are looking critically at those G numbers, the strength of the wire from which the chain is made.

Why would you consider buying anchors that have no holding capacity data available to allow comparison and basically the only data is from individuals who have stuck their necks out (would you admit to buying a lemon?) or from the manufacturers. Most individual comments are, at best, subjective and often ill informed and the manufacturers are, well - trying to sell anchors.

There are plenty of anchors that have been tested and many independently tested, Rocna, Supreme, Kobra, Spade, Excel, Knox, Ultra.

There is no prefect anchor, nor windlass, all compromise somewhere and part of the compromise is money (usually not having enough to share around )

If you are happy based on no data - I'd simply buy the cheapest chain, windlass and anchor available.

Jonathan

Perhaps i should've written "all seem to have done reasonably well in independent tests and also enjoy a reasonable reputation as well" ? For instance, i have watched most of of S/V Panope's anchor test videos, and while i do realise that there are no test data available to cover all possible seabeds, rode scopes, etc. Panope's tests seem to give quite valuable information for choosing an anchor. I claim to be no expert in judging anchors, but i cannot find anything negative to say regarding his testing methods, quite the contrary. Having said this, anchor is not a piece of equipment that i'd try to save money on. If i had to choose, i think i'd rather buy a cheaper/smaller windlass - or continue with my Seatiger 555 rather than save money by buying a anchor that would have no test data (independent test) available.

Somewhat similar thing with windlasses, we do have data from manufacturers and some of the windlasses have even been tested by magazines. But judging the build quality, long term corrosion protection and reliability and manufacturers support available (apart from warranty), we often will either need to be happy with no hard test data or ask others for experiences and advice and perhaps judge ourselves what to make of the feedback we may get?

 

[Neeves]

P. S. Any links to Mantus Swivel failure much appreciated.

The search facility on Cruisers Forum will throw up a number of threads on the Mantus swivel

Try this one for size

Mantus Anchor Swivel safety wire - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

There are a number of similar threads.

Having a safety device whose integrity is contingent on 2 bits of wire looks questionable to me especially in the light of the above thread.

There has not been much comment on YBW - Mantus are not big in the UK.

I think you miss the point - the Mantus swivel is very large, much larger than the chain and shackle. Anything large incorporated into the rode will hinder the ability of most anchors, Rocna, Supreme, Excel, Spade, etc to set. When modern anchors set the shackle and the toe bury at the same time and initially at the same rate. If there is something big resisting the shank end from burying then you will not bury much chain and the anchor will struggle more, specifically in harder substrates. I've tested swivels for their ability to turn and remove twists (they don't) and investigated burial issues. Swivels work if you have a twist in the chain every 1.5m (Yes, I've tested it) Most twists will fall out from torque in the chain, simply stop the retrieval when the anchor has broken out and is hanging freely if you think you have a lot of twists. All anchors will self right at the bow roller - but having a anchor self right at the bow roller can be damaging and sometimes modern windlass are so fast there is simply no time for the anchor to self right fully. Many people incorporate a swivel simply because they can stop the windlass before the anchor actually arrives at the bow roller and they can align the anchor with a broomstick, or boat hook.

Anyone can design and build a swivel that is bullet proof in terms of strength (and the Mantus swivel is a master of design). However the swivel is there as part of a rode - and you should be looking at the performance of the whole not one portion in idealised isolation. If you use a Boomerang (or NormanS bent link) - you do not need a swivel and the device can be built from 2205 Duplex or HT steel and be stronger than the rode, even a G70 rode. If the Boomerang is made from the same size steel plate as the chain it will be thinner in area than the rode - and enhance rode performance. It when buried helps to resist some veering as it buries vertically (again I've tested it) and acts as a 'vertical' fluke.

The Mantus anchor is hydro dynamic - if the yacht is moving backwards, which would be normal on deployment, the anchor arrives at the seabed correct way round. On retrieval the anchor will arrive, back to front, if the yacht is moving forward.

I have tested the Mantus anchor it has the hold of a similarly weighted Delta. If you want a Mantus with the same hold as a Rocna/Spade etc then you would need to buy one of more than twice the weight. You do have to wonder why Mantus do not quote hold data in comparison with other anchors. I have seen no hold data on the Vulcan nor Mantus M2. The videos of the M2, produced by the manufacturer, seem to show a very long setting distance (if it sets and locks up at all). There is a thread on the M2 on YBW - that's what people noticed, the long setting distance. Panope vids show setting and re-setting they do not indicate hold. I have not tested a Vulcan nor even seen the Mantus M2 (except both in manufacturers vids). Given the number of anchors that have been tested I would not want to be the guinea pig - nor see the need.

Interestingly people buy a Rocna, Supreme, Spade etc because they set reliably (as does the original Mantus), have 2 times the hold for the same weight as a Bruce or Delta.

Obviously if you do not prioritise hold it does not matter.

Jonathan

 

[Star-Lord]

I asked for posts regarding Mantus swivel failure!

I read that post just before I made my purchase. Have you actually read it?

There was only one chap who had problems with his wire breaking consistently - he writes that he was always careful to twist the wire tight. I would say too tight! This review was one of them...

Re: Mantus Anchor Swivel safety wire
I've used the S1 Mantus swivel on 5/16" chain and Rocna 20kg anchor four summers on the Inside Passage, ~350-400 nights anchored so far. Re-wired the swivel twice so far - probably should do every year. Have not yet seen sufficient wear and tear on the wire to worry about.

I did however use one size larger wire than what came with it - the supplied wire at that time seemed a little small.

I think it matters how carefully you put it together. I made sure it was tight, no excess wire hanging out to be easily grabbed. Tucked the twisted ends in well too.

Excellent swivel.
__________________
Richard Cook
Dream Catcher (Nordic Tug 37)
"Cruising in a Big Way"


I am surprised you have not mentioned that a Spade anchor has a single bolt holding the shank to the body. The best all-round anchor is held together by a single bolt...

If there is concern about using two long pieces of wire 4 x shorter ones will do. There are no failed (correctly fitted) Mantus or Kong swivel stories that I have heard of yet.

The Mantus S2 swivel is an excellent bit of kit and the strongest most robust swivel I could find to match the G6 Plus 8mm Cromox chain. Cromox is German chain guaranteed against corrosion for 3 years (then another 3 years if returned for inspection).

The swivel works because if it did not work it would be in the bin! It has been well tested. If a swivel was not needed it would not be used.

Anchor twist can severely weaken your chain. So much so So if you have twisting problems (and it is impossible to deny the problem exists) they must be dealt with.

As has been posted on YBW before - Maxwell recommend a swivel. Winch Accessories

 

[Neeves]

Star Lord, you are quite right that only one person reports on failure but some of the other users of the same device have replaced the wire under normal maintenance (not as many would do - fit and forget). Some have replaced with wire with something they consider a bit more robust and some have used a large, or long, cotter pin.

There seemed to be a rather large number of the respondents who thought the supplied wire questionable and found their own solutions. You have done exactly the same thing - the wire supplied should be capable of doing the job - there should be no need for costumers to find a better way.

Not an overly encouraging endorsement in my book.

Maybe you should do what I have done - here is another thread (which I assume you have also read).

Mantus swivel? Design flaws? Or no swivel at all? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

And I did read this thread when it was current, as I had read the first link I provided. I don't recalll the detail except that the issues had occurred more than once. I was left with doubts - and doubts should not exist in the rode.

You are right an excellent swivel (excepting its held together with wire) and marvel of engineering and production. Its a pity it is so large and a pity they did not hold it together with, say, alan headed bolts.

I note your comment, with which I agree, twists in the chain will reduce its strength. Have you any idea how many twists are needed?

A google search threw up this reference

(PDF) Effects of Twist on Chain Strength and Fatigue Performance: Small Scale Test Results

I may misunderstand but they seem to be saying that a 18 degree twist per link, so 360 degrees over about 20 links and 20 links for 8mm chain is about 0.5m will result in a loss of strength of 4%. You would need to be sitting at anchor for weeks for this to be a real worry.

A second study seems to show a similar result

The Low-Down On Twisting Safety Chains - From The Mechanic's Post

I confess that during my testing of anchor chain I had not thought to consider chain twist. However if the result above is valid then the amount of twist needed to cause any of us concern is large (if not very unlikely) - unless you are living in one anchorage for an extended period.

One obvious solution is to lift your anchor every few days - and maybe - go sailing

I had not mentioned that Spade was held together with one bolt - because it is not the subject of this thread. Spade is held together by one bolt - which is not load bearing. I don't see the issue. I don't recall reading many threads of Spade failure attributed to the bolt. I have tested a Spade without the bolt (I did tie retrieval rope to the fluke - I was not that confident ) and as they say the bolt simply secures the shank and stops it slipping out. You can actually set the anchor and retrieve it without the bolt - it is - as they say. Obviously the shank could slip out - hence the bolt. We carry an aluminium A80 and have been using it without issue for around 15 years now. The bolt is well secured with both a nyloc nut and a cotter pin (though if you detach the bolt frequently the nut loses its 'locking' capabilities).


Jonathan

edit

Mikko, I assume you have seen this.

How to: The Right Electric Windlass for Your Boat

I have not read it, no time (just happened to trip over it). Sam was editor at Sailing Today (might still be editor)

 

[Stooriefit]

Mikko,

Can I suggest that you start from the seabed up, rather than the foredeck down? Sort out your preferred anchor first - you'll read an awful lot of differing views on which anchor to choose (this forum is littered with them). For what it is worth I went with a spade (replaced a CQR which had dragged on me a couple of times (I know some people will say their one never has). This combined with my 10mm chain means that I sleep without worry when the anchor is out - always take the time to make sure it is properly set. I've seen people with electric windlasses simply dump the chain and do nothing else - you need to dig the anchor in and let the scope run out on the seabed. The SeaTiger lifts all of this without any trouble - okay it isn't a quick as pressing a button but if the electric fails then the manual override on the electric versions all seem to me to be pretty crap. I wouldn't want to bring in the anchor and rode with a winch handle and only a single speed.

 

[Star-Lord]

Star Lord, you are quite right that only one person reports on failure but some of the other users of the same device have replaced the wire under normal maintenance (not as many would do - fit and forget). Some have replaced with wire with something they consider a bit more robust and some have used a large, or long, cotter pin.

There seemed to be a rather large number of the respondents who thought the supplied wire questionable and found their own solutions. You have done exactly the same thing - the wire supplied should be capable of doing the job - there should be no need for costumers to find a better way.

Not an overly encouraging endorsement in my book.

Maybe you should do what I have done - here is another thread (which I assume you have also read).

Mantus swivel? Design flaws? Or no swivel at all? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

And I did read this thread when it was current, as I had read the first link I provided. I don't recalll the detail except that the issues had occurred more than once. I was left with doubts - and doubts should not exist in the rode.

You are right an excellent swivel (excepting its held together with wire) and marvel of engineering and production. Its a pity it is so large and a pity they did not hold it together with, say, alan headed bolts.

I note your comment, with which I agree, twists in the chain will reduce its strength. Have you any idea how many twists are needed?

A google search threw up this reference

(PDF) Effects of Twist on Chain Strength and Fatigue Performance: Small Scale Test Results

I may misunderstand but they seem to be saying that a 18 degree twist per link, so 360 degrees over about 20 links and 20 links for 8mm chain is about 0.5m will result in a loss of strength of 4%. You would need to be sitting at anchor for weeks for this to be a real worry.

A second study seems to show a similar result

The Low-Down On Twisting Safety Chains - From The Mechanic's Post

I confess that during my testing of anchor chain I had not thought to consider chain twist. However if the result above is valid then the amount of twist needed to cause any of us concern is large (if not very unlikely) - unless you are living in one anchorage for an extended period.

One obvious solution is to lift your anchor every few days - and maybe - go sailing

I had not mentioned that Spade was held together with one bolt - because it is not the subject of this thread. Spade is held together by one bolt - which is not load bearing. I don't see the issue. I don't recall reading many threads of Spade failure attributed to the bolt. I have tested a Spade without the bolt (I did tie retrieval rope to the fluke - I was not that confident ) and as they say the bolt simply secures the shank and stops it slipping out. You can actually set the anchor and retrieve it without the bolt - it is - as they say. Obviously the shank could slip out - hence the bolt. We carry an aluminium A80 and have been using it without issue for around 15 years now. The bolt is well secured with both a nyloc nut and a cotter pin (though if you detach the bolt frequently the nut loses its 'locking' capabilities).


Jonathan

No one reported a failure. Having to replace mousing wire is having to replace mousing wire. A failure would be the swivel detaching from the chain.

Yes, some have replaced mousing wire with more robust or different strategies. In the same way as my Spade shank is fixed with two nyclock nuts and not the standard nut and pin supplied.

The way of fixing the Mantus collar is obviously open to interpretation. The wire supplied is capable of the job and I have used it as recommended.

There is always room for consumers of boats stuff to find a better way of fixing stuff...my Spade anchor fixing as first example. Another example is the friction ring fairlead on my Yankee replacing the yacht supplied block and replacing 10mm reef lines with 8mm dynema and the list goes on!

If you had read any of my previous posts and realised and understood that many people need a swivel you would not recommend that they do not! That is irresponsible. And could lead to windlass breakage. Try pulling 60m of anchor rode in a hurry with chain with lots twist...its not going to happen. I would go as far to say - and could successfully argue - that a good swivel can be a vital piece of safety kit.

Put simply chain twist is dangerous and can cause failure of chain and windlass and therefore boat.
I would recommend a swivel to anyone who needs one. If they are fitted correctly and of a certain brand. They work. They are safe.
Surely you would be helping people more by recommending correct fitting techniques? I have no doubts about the safety of my rode!.

If i find a nice anchorage I am happy to spend 12 weeks in the same spot. A good anchorage means something different for everyone. Personally I like to be within 15 mins fast dinghy ride of town/village. I do not think you are in a position to recommend how people should live on their boats. Many like the marina - or a mooring - or even a boatyard. I would never dream of suggesting they go sailing more often. There is little point in day sailing in summer when you have found a good spot imho.

Let me give you an example of my thinking - so I could say, 'I would like to point out your aluminium spade is not recommended as a main anchor and therefore only suitable as a kedge. I would not recommend a aluminium spades under any circumstance because there are better kedges.... and better kedges that can double a main anchor in a storm...' This is something I believe - and still do - but would not say that (to you) because you have tested said anchor and used it safely for 15 years! Maybe in some circumstances the aluminium spade is a good choice...mmm interesting. And what kind of man would trust their yacht to 6mm chain when everyone else uses 8mm...mmmm interesting.....obviously I would never contemplate such a move but if using high test chain - one size down - on a racing boat - or for keeping weight down in a cat - it has merit. But recommending 6mm chain to be used on a liveabooard boat that plans to spend many nights at anchor..... can't get my head around that.... would def not recommend it - but it is obviously working for someone so maybe this could be recommended in the future....intersting mmmmm...i have learned something new.

Do you see how I have changed my thoughts on how stuff should be done based on your experience? I would be interested to hear how this forum has helped you?

 

[Mikko M]

Mikko,

Can I suggest that you start from the seabed up, rather than the foredeck down? Sort out your preferred anchor first - you'll read an awful lot of differing views on which anchor to choose (this forum is littered with them). For what it is worth I went with a spade (replaced a CQR which had dragged on me a couple of times (I know some people will say their one never has). This combined with my 10mm chain means that I sleep without worry when the anchor is out - always take the time to make sure it is properly set. I've seen people with electric windlasses simply dump the chain and do nothing else - you need to dig the anchor in and let the scope run out on the seabed. The SeaTiger lifts all of this without any trouble - okay it isn't a quick as pressing a button but if the electric fails then the manual override on the electric versions all seem to me to be pretty crap. I wouldn't want to bring in the anchor and rode with a winch handle and only a single speed.

I like the way you think, i have actually done that 'rehearsal' a couple of times. Here's what i've thought so far; for instance, according to Spade's recommendations a 20 kg S100 model should be quite enough for my 7 ton / 32 ft boat. Most other anchor manufacturers seem to suggest that 20 kg anchor as a main bow anchor is enough with nice safety margin. Of course, the 'anchor' in this context is a modern, HHP/SHHP anchor that is generally recognised as reliable anchor in most situations. I could of course go up in anchor size to a 25kg model, and add 5 kilos of weight to bow with an increased cost. Some would argue that would be money well spent, and some would consider it absolutely insane.

As a sidenote, for a racing boat, no anchor should be even near to bow area in my opinion, let alone chain. Some IMS/ORCi racers (40ft or so) i was involved with used to have a small, 4-5 kg easily stowable anchors with a rope not much thicker than what one would use for hanging out laundry. And all this was packed tightly in a waterproof bag under the floorboards or some other place midships where it could be brought out if there was an inspection before or after the race. Good seamanship? Perhaps not, but any dead weight in the bow area hurts performance.

Regarding the chain, according to literature and recommendations, 8 mm DIN766, even as G30 version should be strong enough for such a small boat. But as the price difference between G30 and G40 chains seems to be quite small and most stores will sell only G40 or stronger, it is a no brainer to go for stronger G40, if not even higher spec. The gypsy in my lovely old Seatiger 555 will not accept 8mm chain. I’ve understood that I could use 5/16 HT chain, but I have not yet tried it. I think I will order a short sample of that chain to see how well it fits the gypsy compared to 10mm DIN chain. I will need to buy a new anchor chain irregardless whether I choose to buy electric windlass or not, the current rode is no good. The weight differences between different sizes of chain start to be significant if the anchor rode is long and all chain, basically the 5 extra kilos from a larger anchor is not much compared to weight differences between 8 and 10 mm chains, especially if the chain is of any significant length.

Now then, the windlass should be able to lift the anchor and the chain, and have a quite large margin of extra grunt to be able to break it free from seabed when the anchor is well set. You are quite right that Seatiger 555 will be strong enough for, say 100 metres of 10mm chain (230 kg) and a ridiculously heavy anchor. And so are most, if not all electric windlasses with 1000w motors. Of course I could (and should) consider using a rope-chain combination as it have used before. That is probably the easiest and cheapest way to reduce weight in the chain locker. Another issue with the current gypsy that sits on my Seatiger 555 is that it is quite choosy with ropes, it basically works adequately with 3 strand ropes, but poorly with multiplaits.

One thing that I still need to figure out is what kind of bow roller works best with the anchor I choose buy. There will most likely be a little bit of fabrication since I have a bowsprit, and i think i will want the bow roller to go through it in a shallow angle, rather than sitting on top of it. It seems to me that many bow rollers will actually be the first one to break when anchoring in high winds and swells. Snubbers of course help, but they can and do break sometimes, although i've never had it happen to me, yet.

 

[Star-Lord]

REPLACEMENT ROLLERS / SHEAVE FOR BOW ROLLER. NYLON & RUBB
But no Teflon!!!

The humble bow roller insert or 'sheave' is worth a short discussion!

It is quite handy to have a groove in it matching your chain - it helps untwist the chain and protects the windlass. Also the material is a important consideration for longevity and robustness. I was fortunate to get one made in a boat yard out of Teflon with a 8mm groove.

Also regarding anchor position on the bow... It is handy to be able to reach the anchor to clean it or de-weed it if /when needed.

 

[Mikko M]

REPLACEMENT ROLLERS / SHEAVE FOR BOW ROLLER. NYLON & RUBB
But no Teflon!!!

The humble bow roller insert or 'sheave' is worth a short discussion!

It is quite handy to have a groove in it matching your chain - it helps untwist the chain and protects the windlass. Also the material is a important consideration for longevity and robustness. I was fortunate to get one made in a boat yard out of Teflon with a 8mm groove.

Also regarding anchor position on the bow... It is handy to be able to reach the anchor to clean it or de-weed it if /when needed.

Is there actually any reason not to have a groove in the roller? For all-chain rode it seems pretty much no brainer to have a grooved one, but are there any downsides? The rope does not seem to mind the groove, at least i haven't ever noticed anything.