Advice for a novice on lowering the sails.

[ProDave]

I'm a novice sailor just learning things.

Today we took Ferndell out for her second sail since getting her. No problems getting the sails up and sailing her. But getting the sails down...

I always thought the theory was point the boat into the wind, thighten the mainsheet, then take the sails down.

So, boat into the wind, I go on the foredeck (mrs PD at the helm) to take the jib down first. Next thing the boat is broadside onto the wind, going nowhere, and heeling over at what seemed like an alarming angle. the angle probably wasn't that bad, but it seemed like it due to my position at the time and my inexperience.

So we swap places and this time I manage to keep the boat into the wind while Mrs PD takes the sails down.

My concern is this was only in a light wind. I'm not looking forward to doing this in a strong wind.

So my questions:

Is it right to point the boat into the wind, and is it right to tighten the main sheet?

Which sail should you lower first, main sail or jib?

Would it be better to start the motor before trying to lower the sails, if nothing else to make it easier to keep the boat pointed into the wind?

Any other advice?

I appreciate these are obvious questions to most of you, but we are novices at the moment, with no professional instruction just yet, and strangely, none of the books we have read tell you how to get the sails down, they just concentrate on how to sail the boat (that bit we have no trouble with)

 

[mikehibb]

We were taught to always start the engine first, we were also taught sails up before engine off (obviously)

We always head into wind when dropping the main sail, usually just a few revs on the engine, enough to keep some forward track.

Genny normaly comes in first and not necessarily with engine on.

 

[Lakesailor]

I've had three 18 foot boats now and I understand your concerns.
They are much more prey to the wind than a larger boat with more inertia. Once you head up and drop the headsail (I have a furling headsail - not reefing, but furling - about £60 from Barton) the boat has stopped and is waiting instructions from the wind.
If you sheet in the main at this point it will heel a bit and start trying to sail off on a reach, so I leave the mainsheet slack until I'm ready to drop the main. Even single-handed it's not difficult to hold the halyard with one hand (in the cockpit whether the halyard is led there or not) and tighten the mainsheet with the other, letting go of the halyard at the same time. On my boat I can help the main down from the companionway, but on my previous boat it was only a quick step up to the mast to drop it. Let it fall in the cockpit. You will need to have a topping lift to be able to do this easily. Then a quick flake and a couple of sail ties. Sort out the kicking strap and topping lift, raise the gooseneck (if you do that when storing the main). Either flake the sail properly or wait until back on the mooring or jetty before tidying up.
Being single-handed the motor doesn't help at all as I can't steer and drop sails and if I tie off the rudder, being a small and light boat, moving about alters course anyway.
I don't have an auto-pilot.

I leave myself enough space to my lee to do these things before needing the motor. But you can start the engine and leave it in neutral if you like whilst doing these things. However be wary that your moving about forward doesn't lift the leg out of the water, stopping cooling water and maybe damaging the impellor.

Keep an eye on drift whilst doing these things.

It's just a matter of setting a routine, once that's clear you can do it without hassle.

 

[Niander]

Would it be better to start the motor before trying to lower the sails?

definitely keep it into the wind on autopilot or helper ...i was always short handed
jib down first then the main....directly into the wind and normally the waves
you may need to help pull the main down

 

[VicS]

I would agree motor slowly into the wind with the main sheet free for raising or lowering the mainsail.

Tightening the mainsheet is your problem I think

If not motoring then head up into the wind, let the sheet fly and get the sail down as quickly as you possibly can. The trouble with a small boat is that the bow very quickly blows off, much more quickly than it does with a bigger boat. then if you still have much sail up and the sheet is tight you are in trouble. An inexperienced helmsman will, I think, tend to try to correct by steering the wrong way (ie not reversing the tiller once the boat is making stern way)

Do a rough stow, just to keep it all together, and tidy it up later.

Not something I fancy but maybe you should consider fitting lazy jacks.

 

[Neil]

I often have the same experience. When I'm single-handing, I stop the OB after pointing to the wind, but by the time I'm either raising or lowering the sails, I'm back to broadside to wind. In each case the only way I manage is to raise the main first, with the main sheet slack, then unfurl the jib (and vice versa to lower the sails). Unfurling the jib first just swings you round faster. If I have a crew, they can keep it into the wind under power, but what did they do without a motor, in the old days? If I heave-to, I can lower the main easy enough, but it's not any advantage.

 

[ProDave]

I think you've hit the probem, mainsheet tight, and neither helm nor me appreciating the boat would be going backwards so reverse tiller needed.

So, motor on to ensure going the right way and easier to keep into wind, keep mainsheet slack while dropping genny, then drop main.

I'll let you know how it goes next time.

I have a furling headsail - not reefing, but furling - about £60 from Barton

Perhaps this needs a seperate thread, but tell me more about this furling headsail, and what makes it different from (and 2 orders of magnitude cheaper than) a roller reefing headsail.

I've looked up this barton reefing system and see the drum and top swivel for sale, but what sort of mechanism goes in between them for the sail to wind itself around? Is this just a rigid tube that you DIY for the sail to wind onto or is that another bit of the kit on sale?

 

[Lakesailor]

You have to have a wire luff in the headsail as it would wind-up without something to transmit the roatation to the top swivel. Not too bad to have fitted. That attaches to the drum and the top swivel.
You cannot use it to shorten sail, only to furl or unfurl. But it works really well. Much better than the Plastimo system I had on my first boat. You keep the original forestay as well.
I have a short wire strop at the tack of my headsdail to allow me vision under the foot.

 

[ProDave]

Right, my engineering hat is saying "how does that work?"

If all that's inside the sail is a stainless steel wire, what stops the wire twisting, i.e the bottom part of the sail winds on more than the top? My "engineering mind" says the thing the sail is winding onto needs to be torsionally stiff, but that does not look torsionally stiff to me?

I'm not doubting it works, but trying to understand how it works.

What exactly is inside the sail? and how much does it cost to have that sewn in to an existing sail?

 

[prv]

If all that's inside the sail is a stainless steel wire, what stops the wire twisting, i.e the bottom part of the sail winds on more than the top? My "engineering mind" says the thing the sail is winding onto needs to be torsionally stiff, but that does not look torsionally stiff to me?

It's just a wire. I suppose under heavy load what you describe might happen, but in practice the wire is "stiff enough" for it to work.

I have something similar on my jib, except mine is the 1890s version known as a "Wykeham Martin gear". They're still making them (but the plastic Barton version is cheaper than a real bronze one )

The little strop that Lakesailor has is unusual, usually the eye on the tack of the sail would go directly into the fitting on top of the drum. As you can see, the eye is firmly stitched to the luff to make sure the sail turns rather than just the wire inside. The head will be similar.

Pete

 

[fishermantwo]

I would suggest a simple set of lazy jacks. After dropping or furling jib, sail into the wind and cleat the main sheet in about the closehauled position. Haul up the topping lift slightly to depower the main. let the main just drop down into the lazy jacks. Leave the tiller alone and the boat will just gently round up and full back to the closehauled position while your at the mast ensuring the main comes fully down. Secure main to boom with shock cord either side of boom and clips. Wife should be able to remain in cockpit while you do this. The secret is to have everything set up in the first place and don;t panic.

 

[sarabande]

the only penn'orth I have to add is to say that during these kind of evolutions, it is very easy to drop a line over the side into the propellor. FWIW, before starting the engine on our boat, the person at the controls is responsible for checking that all ropes are clear and nothing is hanging over the side.

 

[ProDave]

So my winter jobs list is looking like:

Lazyjacks

Roller furling jib

And those plastic sliders for the main to save the tedious job of feeding the luff rope into the mast.

 

[VicS]

And those plastic sliders for the main to save the tedious job of feeding the luff rope into the mast.

I would not rush into that. A bolt rope is quite adequate for a small boat. If your mast, in particular the track, is designed for a bolt rope you might find there are more downsides to using sliders than there are to keeping the bolt rope.

You can to get a feeder that fits below the entry point to feed a sail with a bolt rope into the track. Like this

My mast is actually designed for sliders but I still have a bolt rope 30+ years on!

 

[Romeo]

I often have the same experience. When I'm single-handing, I stop the OB after pointing to the wind, but by the time I'm either raising or lowering the sails, I'm back to broadside to wind. In each case the only way I manage is to raise the main first, with the main sheet slack, then unfurl the jib (and vice versa to lower the sails). Unfurling the jib first just swings you round faster. If I have a crew, they can keep it into the wind under power, but what did they do without a motor, in the old days? If I heave-to, I can lower the main easy enough, but it's not any advantage.

I sail an 18' yacht, not unlike Neil's, without a motor.

If the wind is blowing out the harbour entrance I hoist the jib on my mooring, and have the throat and peak halyards ready to hoist, with the main on one sail tie. If the wind is lightish I can hoist the main going downwind as I sail out the harbour entrance. If not I either go out to a buoy or run down under jib till I am in clear water and then point up and hoist. I guess this is a question of knowing your boat. Mine is heavy with a long keel, so I am sure I have an advantage over less predicatable boats.

If the wind is on the nose I row out the harbour entrance and tie against a wall facing the wind, hoist all sail and sail off the wall.

If I then need to tidy up a bit I heave to as soon as I am in clear water.

For the return Gunter/ Gaff rig is great for swift and certain sail handling. By having one topping lift on either side of the sail, which acts like a lazy jacks, combined with the weight of the gaff, I can drop the main instantly. Getting rid of the jib is slightly harder, but it is a comparatively small sail, and can usually be let fly without driving the boat off in the wrong direction.

So in answer to your question "what did they do without a motor, in the old days?" I guess the answer is that they sailed boats which, because of long keels and heavy rig, were more predictable for handling, and had harbours, not marinas, which were set up to be approached under sail.

 

[Romeo]

I'm a novice sailor just learning things.



Would it be better to start the motor before trying to lower the sails, if nothing else to make it easier to keep the boat pointed into the wind?

Do bear in mind that with some wee boats if you are up on the foredeck, the prop might be out the water! Around Fortrose the best drill might be to go onto a vacant mooring buoy to hoist/ lower. Enjoy the learning process. It goes on for as long as you continue to sail

 

[Niander]

Yes lazy jacks are a must...they stop the main spilling out from the boom when down i made my own using 8mm rope

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Yes lazy jacks are a must...they stop the main spilling out from the boom when down i made my own using 8mm rope

Not on an 18 foot boat! I sailed a 20' keelboat for several years without a topping lift, lazyjacks, slugs in the mast track and once I'd worked out the most effective procedures never had any trouble getting the sails down.

ProDave, are you a member of a club? There's a great sailing club at Fortrose (Chanonry SC) and I'm sure there are others in your part of the world where you will find loads of helpful advice.

 

[ProDave]

I would not rush into that. A bolt rope is quite adequate for a small boat. If your mast, in particular the track, is designed for a bolt rope you might find there are more downsides to using sliders than there are to keeping the bolt rope.

You can to get a feeder that fits below the entry point to feed a sail with a bolt rope into the track. Like this

My mast is actually designed for sliders but I still have a bolt rope 30+ years on!

Usefull comments.

I think the main "problem" I have with the bolt rope, is the entry to the mast slot starts immediately above the gooseneck, and is about 5 inches long at most. so what I am saying is within 6 inches above the gooseneck the mast track has narrowed.

So when feeding the bolt rope in. it's having to make a pretty tight turn if that makes sense.

A lot of pictures of other people's masts show a much longer entry slot, often much higher up, which looks like the bolt rope will enter the mast slot a lot easier.

The atached picture is the gooseneck on the mast. You will see the wide entry part of the slot starts immediately above the gooseneck and is barely 6 inches long.

Perhaps I need to lower the gooseneck a bit?

 

[ProDave]

Around Fortrose the best drill might be to go onto a vacant mooring buoy to hoist/ lower. Enjoy the learning process. It goes on for as long as you continue to sail

That's a good suggestion. I've not even tried picking up a mooring so don't even know what kit I need, but certainly something to look at. There are visitor moorings at the end of each trot, so one should usualy be vacant.