Adrian Morgan (March 2010)

Chris

I already tested with 2KW heat gun & scraper; epoxy lifts off OK (managed to burn one hole through though), but it was the overall approach. I'm thinking, right way up get the woven rovings tape/glue off, upside down then onto the mould/ladder to get planks off. I'm concerned I'll lose the shape/angle of the front & rear transoms, and whether to simply remove the frame first or leave in as I take off the planks. Some of this would be specific to this design, but just trying to get the order settled in my mind.
Having been a big reader of Wooden Boat for many years, and our Classic Boat/The Boatman/Watercraft, I do wonder whether I'm just unlucky to have to rebuild, perhaps epoxy ply was only intended to have a limited number of life, or perhaps I'm just early in the cycle and more boats built like this will need repair in the future.

IanC
 
Ian,

I have a deWalt heatgun with a fully adjustable temperature that cost £30. It means I can set just the right temperature for the job at hand.

I suggest you create a new thread ;) with some piccies and add to the thread as you progress. I've done this and I've had a very good response with lots of helpful advice and genuine interest. It's also a helpful resource for those looking to do similar projects.

Good luck! :)

Chris
 
Not all ply / epoxy is clinker.

If my primary desire was for a clinker-looking boat, I guess I'd prefer timber, copper fastened.

I didn't particularly want a clinker-looking boat, though. I wanted a boat that looked good, sailed well, had a cabin the right size and could be got on & off a trailer. Shallow draft, etc were also desirable - as was the possibility of building myself.

Ply & epoxy allowed me to build a boat that fulfilled everything I wanted - seen sailing at http://www.youtube.com/whispersvideos

She's truly round bilge, so people find it hard to believe she's made of ply, but use of ply allows a fantastically rigid framework to be made, with the ply in compression in 3 planes, which the skin covers.

As "Whisper Boats" - http://www.whisperboats.co.uk we are now UK agents for these boats (thought I'd better declare my commercial interest!) but this came after I'd ordered my own kit.

Adrian's repeated anti -ply & -epoxy statements do make me weary. A boat designed from scratch to be made from ply & epoxy can be lighter & more rigid than the alternatives, and make building accessible to all.

Max Campbell
 
Whispers

Max, Max, please read carefully what I say before jumping to the conclusion that I don't think epoxy and plywood make good boats. Despite the longevity/repair/rot problems discussed earlier in this thread, they do.

Plywood/epoxy is especially excellent for chine-built, flat-panel boats (how many times do I have to mention the names GP14, Enterprise, Wayfarer, Whisper, Eventide, Badger, etc etc). It's just that I wish more people, before reaching for the safety(?) of plywood and epoxy, would consider building that fine-lined clinker boat in solid timber wth steamed timbers and copper rivets. A thing of beauty and a joy for as long as you look after her. OK? That's my last on the subject.

Adrian
 
I think I'm actually with Adrian on this, if he's correct about the comparison of ease, cost, etc of the two building methods and I have no reason to doubt him.

Plywood's great weakness is it's inclination to rot. Building a clinker boat with plywood planks exposes an awful lot of that vulnerable end grain. On a flat-panel boat those edges are nicely tucked away.

It would be great to see a revival of amateur boatbuilding using whatever method.

Adrian, don't despair, I'm in need of a tender and you've got me thinking maybe I'll have a go at repairing or building a little clinker boat :)

Chris
 
Solid plywood & real epoxy.

I know Adrian doesn't want to go on about this, but just as he wishes more people would consider clinker, I wish more people had a more positive attitude to ply & epoxy.

East Coast Chris is right that clinker ply exposes all that end grain - ply's achilles heel. A boat designed from scratch to make the best use of ply incorporates features so that all the end grain is capped - either with more ply, or with solid wood trim. Especially if sheathed I (and a surveyor of my acquaintance) reckon a well-designed plywood boat will last as long as timber clinker (I hope I live long enough to find out).

"Chine-built" doesn't have to mean angular, either, as my boat testifies.

So, please don't think ply & epoxy always means either loads of end grain or slabby angles, or longevity problems - it doesn't. What it does mean is a forgiving way of building that gives first timers with no woodworking skill a way of building a beautiful boat.
 
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Clinker ply

I built clinker boats as a professional for many years, mostly solid wood. They were and still are very strong, hard wearing and stable. They were not all that light. They were forgiving when scuffed against concrete piers and loaded with bags of coal.

I'm now, as an amateur, helping to build a St Ayles skiff in clinker ply. I was invited by Adrian to join the syndicate he was forming to make and race the boat, and was happy to join. I have had a great time in the build and expect the boat to come out looking as beautiful as all Ian's other designs. Google Ullapool Coastal Rowing for details. The boat is a lightweight pleasure craft which will not be bashed about.

My take on clinker is that it is a very cunning way to make flat planks into a beautiful flowing strong shape. The same skills are needed whether the planks are ply or solid. If solid, very good quality timber is required, in thin wide clear long pieces. The boat will require reinforcement athwartships (ribs) because all the grain in the planks will be fore-and-aft. This is fun to steam in and rivet, but not fun to paint thereafter.

The solid wood boat will get heavier as it gets wetter, but this is not always bad. Keeping the boat ashore will allow the planks to shrink and as the boats ages a wet/dry cycle will cause leaks. If kept afloat the boat will be fine.

The ply boat however well coated will get wet through if on a mooring, and modern ply is not as rot resistant as the older stuff. The clinker ply boat will need care to keep the exposed edges of the ply coated and dry. But for a dry sailed boat ply has it hands down for lightness, simplicity and resistance to warping, cracking and ease of maintenance.

Both are timber boats, one held together with several kilos of expensive metal fasteners and the other with several kilos of expensive glue, but both are at least 95% wood by weight.

Having built both types I think they both have their role, and neither should be demonised.

Cheers, Topher.
 
adrianmorgan said:
seamless repair; plywood's lack of life. It is inert, cold, characterless.

Plywood is a throwback to a more wasteful age. I have a bin full of offcuts I can't burn or recycle.
.
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Very sad and very disrespectful . I would put it to you that what you are saying is a personal opinion and not a matter of fact.

Like many I'm sure, own a glass boat but enjoy all forms of boatbuilding and design.
 
The reason why so many amateurs are wary of real clinker are I think these:

1. Nervousness over cutting the gains and the shape of the rabbet at the cutwater

2. Nervousness about steaming (the everday availability of wallpaper strippers takes the terror out of this!)

3. Concerns about the effect that clenching up noise will have on neighbours.

On the other hand you can work in an unheated shed.
 
topherdawson said:
Having built both types I think they both have their role, and neither should be demonised.
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Topher, I think that's a great and very interesting post. I completely agree with your conclusion.

Minn, you raise three good points, especially the last one for those working in their spare time. Whether the various difficulties encountered in reality are the same as they are perceived to be when choosing a construction method is perhaps a moot point.

What I think is needed is better information all round for the amateur builder to make a more informed choice. The point being not to denigrate one method compared with another but to promote informed choice in selecting a method best suited to the boat and the builder.

Chris
 
Minn said:
Are you serious?

You need a sense of humour transplant!
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Minn I do not think it is a case of Humour . The columist has said and written some very dangerous points about ply and epoxy . Such words have sent buisness to the wall.I agree its his opinion and he is entitled to them.Is he a 24 seven boat builder? I don't know.The World is hard enough without slating build techniques righ or wrong . As said before If you want a classic built yacht fine . If you want a modern built yacht fine .
 
Crabman said:
Minn I do not think it is a case of Humour . The columist has said and written some very dangerous points about ply and epoxy . Such words have sent buisness to the wall.I agree its his opinion and he is entitled to them.Is he a 24 seven boat builder? I don't know.The World is hard enough without slating build techniques righ or wrong . As said before If you want a classic built yacht fine . If you want a modern built yacht fine .
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And you have managed to be obscene and offensive to him in your post at 14:29 on Tuesday.

Which is why I came out in his support.

Adrian Morgan, whom I don't know, obviously builds boats and writes columns for a living, so he is not "24 seven" at either. Presumably that was your point. Bravo. Now grow up, learn to spell and learn some manners if you want to persuade people to your point of view.
 
Crabman said:
Mr Morgan
Are you a full time apprentice served Master boatbuilder in Wood?
Just Curious.
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No, you are not "Just Curious"; you are trying to be clever.

Some other people who read this column may have an idea of when the last boatyards offering formal apprenticeships in wooden boatbuilding stopped doing so. How long have you had your bus pass?
 
There are a lot of Boatyards offering apprenticeships and no I am not being clever just asking a straight forward question . I think he can answer it .Sorry I dont use buses ,I use a 50 knot rib to get to work .
 
I started this debate with a misconception, I've learned some new things and had an entertaining (mostly) discussion along the way. I feel my understanding of the issues has improved. I might even have made a new friend or two.

I can heartily recommend the experience to those who've not tried it.

Chris
 
Minn said:
Are you serious?

You need a sense of humour transplant!
Click to expand...

Having worked in the magazine industry for fifteen years, including 10 years for IPC the publisher of Classic Boat,I am fully aware of what damage can be done to magazines.

It is not uncommon for contributors to get over excited and carried away with who and what they are. I would suggest that this is such an occasion. So far, this thread has over 500 views. This is multiplied many times by people talking about it.

If this had been presented in a different way it could have enjoyed a healthy slant.

As Adrian Morgan has not responded today, I expect that he now realises the damage he has done to the magazine.

I would also expect that the Advertising Manager and Group Publisher have had serious words with the editor Dan Houston.
 
Getting back to the boats, I built for Minn's second reason. I trail/sail, and a classic clinker would be of no use if it lived under cover and spent most of my sailing time 'taking up'. The exposed edges of ply are pretty well protected by epoxy, one of the advantages of the clinker/ply epoxy system.
I would love to spend the time and take the pleasure of constructing 'proper clinker' but the boat would be of no use to me. I did get involved some years ago in a clinker dinghy project. My putative partner backed out when he read my copy of John Leather's book. Too much work, he said. And he was one of the partners in 'Wooden Ships' Brokerage.This was a commercial idea, as so many people had tried to buy his attractive tender.
I started rowing in a clinker eight, it was extremely flexable(!) and had to be launched and recovered with great care. Perhaps not a great example for this thread, but if of glued construction, might have been of more use, even with the glues of the day. And we had to stop occasionally to bail..
Ply/clinker/ epoxy is fairly forgiving. As said, getting the gains right can be frightening, and the thought that a bit of thickened epoxy will help you out can move the project on much faster. Even if you get it right first time... And the saving of expensive material if it is slightly out, can be a boon for the first timer.


I seem to be duty cook tonight, so need to go.
A

Just realized it was Minn's first reason (grill is going well)
 
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