adding genoa tracks to boat.

[Oscarpop]

I am thinking of adding genoa tracks to my boat so that I can supplement the self tacking blade jib with an overlapping one.

I am assuming that this involves removing the headlining, bolting the tracks through the deck using backing plates and sikaflex and adding the cars?

Or have I got this wrong/ overlooked the bleedin' obvious?

Thanks.

 

[pmagowan]

I have just done this but to a wooden boat so all I did was fix the front of the track with screws into the mahogany then bend the track slightly by hand to get the curve for the next screw, working my way back until it was the appropriate shape. I don't know what you fix to on a plastic boat.

 

[Tranona]

Think your boat was also offered with an overlapping genoa so the deck may already have the re-inforcing bonded in. Check with Southerleys - if you can find anyone to talk to!

 

[Oscarpop]

Think your boat was also offered with an overlapping genoa so the deck may already have the re-inforcing bonded in. Check with Southerleys - if you can find anyone to talk to!

many thanks. they are back to answering the phones, and it seems as if most of the staff are still there.

 

[JimC]

I have just done this to my Hunter Channel 31. On the Hunter the jib is sheeted inside of the shrouds and he genoa tracks are on the edges of the coachroof. I got the drawings from Hunters and bought the parts separately myself rather than ordering a kit. Goachers of Windermere made the sail, the tracks and turning blocks are from Barton. The winches were already there as they are the same ones as work the halyards & reefing. The ceiling panels had to come down to give access to the bolts securing the tracks & turning blocks but no serious problems encountered.

 

[oldsaltoz]

If any timber or foam is being through bolted or screwed into you should make sure you are creating a problem down the track (pun intended).

The Good practice is to pre drill the holes a little oversize and fill them with a mix or epoxy resin and fibres (Micro-Fibres) are good for this, let it cure (24 hrs) and then re drill to the required size, and seal as normal.

The above will ensure no water gets into the timber / foam and also provides support for foam or other soft core material.

Good luck and fair winds.

PS. The maker should be able to provide you with a deck plan for the correct location of the new tracks.

 

[Scarboroughsloop]

I have just done this but to a wooden boat so all I did was fix the front of the track with screws into the mahogany then bend the track slightly by hand to get the curve for the next screw, working my way back until it was the appropriate shape. I don't know what you fix to on a plastic boat.

You do mean bolt rather than screw don't you?

 

[john_morris_uk]

You do mean bolt rather than screw don't you?

Exactly what I thought! I really hope he didn't use screws into the wood... They WILL work loose, allow water to penetrate and eventually pull out. The loads on genoa cars (even on small boats) can be quite high and through bolting is usually the preferred fitting technique.

 

[oldbilbo]

If any timber or foam is being through bolted or screwed into you should make sure you are NOT creating a problem down the track (pun intended).....The Good practice is to pre drill the holes a little oversize and fill them with a mix or epoxy resin and fibres (Micro-Fibres) are good for this.....

A rather better way is that described by the Gougeon Brothers in their seminal 'On Boat Construction - Chapter 27 - Hardware Installation - Techniques of Installing Fasteners in Oversize Holes'.

This is often described as 'potting the fasteners' and is in most circumstances an easier, faster, more attractive and stronger approach.

 

[john_morris_uk]

A rather better way is that described by the Gougeon Brothers in their seminal 'On Boat Construction - Chapter 27 - Hardware Installation - Techniques of Installing Fasteners in Oversize Holes'.

This is often described as 'potting the fasteners' and is in most circumstances an easier, faster, more attractive and stronger approach.

I have certainly seen winches fitted using studs set in epoxy in the deck. I have even fitted an engine using studs potted in epoxy into the engine bearers.

I am still not convinced about the use of wood screws into wood to hold a genoa track down.

I have seen a technique where you VERY lightly grease the screws and set them into epoxy in holes in the wood and then unscrew them before screwing down the fitting. You have to set them first to stop the screws bottoming out in the cast threaded hole you have made when you fit the item of hardware if you follw what I mean. (Or use identical threaded longer screws?)

 

[geoffatstanpit]

This worked fine fixing a track for a blade jib to the coachroof on a Parker 21.

 

[Tranona]

I am still not convinced about the use of wood screws into wood to hold a genoa track down.

You are assuming he meant woodscrews, but suspect he was referring to the correct fastenings for genoa tracks which are countersunk head machine screws, not bolts.

 

[john_morris_uk]

You are assuming he meant woodscrews, but suspect he was referring to the correct fastenings for genoa tracks which are countersunk head machine screws, not bolts.

I understand your point but he said 'screwed into the mahogany' which rather implied woods screws in my reading. Machine screws would have been 'through the mahogany' but perhaps I am reading too much into what might have been a throw away line?

 

[oldbilbo]

I am still not convinced about the use of wood screws into wood to hold a genoa track down.

Isn't that what most British boatbuilders did, in the 80s/90s...? At least they had the professionalism - mostly - to use decent brass and/or stainless, unlike the unspeakable French who seem entranced by the merits of cadmium-plated MS!

And, of course, the good honest handful of tossers wot use 6mm machine screws through 8mm holes in GRP, with plain M6 nuts without backing washers of any kind.

As for....

I have seen a technique where you VERY lightly grease the screws and set them into epoxy in holes in the wood and then unscrew them before screwing down the fitting. You have to set them first to stop the screws bottoming out in the cast threaded hole you have made when you fit the item of hardware...

That's a sound procedure. One variant is to set ordinary hex or Nyloc nuts in a 'pot hole' of thickened epoxy, with the VERY lightly greased machine screw wound part way in. The right length chosen allows for just one more turn - or a turn and a half - to nip up tight when the hardware is mounted.

Quelle geeky!

 

[pmagowan]

No, I mean screw. Can't be through bolted as on the gunwales. This is typical of a boat of this type, never seen it any other way. Takes quite a bit to pull a screw out of old mahogany. I use a bit of grease to help them in and out. The old ones were screwed in with brass screws which eventually started to fail after only 50 years. Still were a bit of a bugger to get out. New screws stainless steel and should last a while.

 

[William_H]

Now to take the thread in a completely different direction ie back on subject. I would not fit tracks for a genoa. Track is expensive and so are the cars. A better solution is to fit a simple saddle and pulley for the sheet for the genoa. You can locate this with a best guess or better after sailing with the genoa.
However an even better arrangement is to fit the jib pulley at the aft most likely position then fit another saddle and pulley a little ahead of the main pulley on each side. Use a tweaker ie a rope with pulley on the end of it on the jib sheet so that you can easily adjust the apparent position of the jib sheet pulley by adjust ting the tweaker rope. Yes you will need a another cleat for the tweaker each side. This adjusting is much easier that moving a car on a track.
You might put the tweaker deck pulley on a snap shackle and provide another saddle outboard and forward. This an be ideal for reahing and running where an outboard jib pulley that is forward will help set the jib.
So for the 4 bolts for 2 saddles each side do as suggested for backing washers and filling the hole with epoxy.
The giant ocean racing maxis (100ft) use a track for the jib but it goes sideways so that sheeting angle to centre line can be adjusted. They then use a pulley on the end of a tweaker rope which it self runs through the dead eye on the track. So by raising or lowering the sheet pulley it is the equivalent of fore and aft adjustment of the sheeting position. You could do similar without the track.
good luck olewill.

 

[john_morris_uk]

No, I mean screw. Can't be through bolted as on the gunwales. This is typical of a boat of this type, never seen it any other way. Takes quite a bit to pull a screw out of old mahogany. I use a bit of grease to help them in and out. The old ones were screwed in with brass screws which eventually started to fail after only 50 years. Still were a bit of a bugger to get out. New screws stainless steel and should last a while.

Fair enough and I guess it depends on the size of the boat and sails. However I still hold that its not best practice to screw genoa tracks down on most boats.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The Gudgeon Brothers have tested screws in wood using their epoxy methods and tested to the point where the screw counter sunk has sheared off instead of the screw pulling out. The results of these tests are in the book referenced in oldbilbo's post, or at least the edition that I have. They do qualify the tests and not all screws did this, so it's not by any means a panacea for all mounting jobs where underside access is restricted. However, clearly a high strength screwed joint in wood (and GRP I assume) is possible using their method where appropriate.