Adding AIS transponder and new chartplotter to old NMEA 0183 instruments

[KompetentKrew]

Hello,

I've just started the process of buying a boat which has fairly scant and dated electronics - it has an anemometer and (I presume) a log, plus a row of cockpit displays:

I assume these run on NMEA 0183 connections.

My priorities are to add an AIS transponder and a good chartplotter.

I'd consider a Matsutec HA-102 AIS (the black box), but not the Matsutec HP33A, HP528A or any of them with a built in chartplotter - I'm happy to pay the extra to get a chart plotter with a good user-interface (i.e. Garmin, Raymarine etc.) and I don't need or want a second display.

The B&G Vulcan 7 FS seems like a good candidate for chartplotter - Force 4 currently have it for £500, making it the cheapest main-brand chartplotter of this size, as far as I can see.

This chartplotter accepts NMEA 2000 data, not NMEA 0183, though.

I'm wondering what might be the most cost-effective way to integrate the NMEA 0183 data into the NMEA 2000 network.

If I buy the Matsutec HA-102 AIS then it has NMEA 0183 output, but presumably this is at a higher baud rate than the ancient instruments, so presumably that means I need two separate NMEA 0183 to NMEA 2000 converters (such as the Actisense NGW-1).

Is this right?

Hoping to avoid paying for multiple NMEA 0183 to NMEA 2000 converters, I looked at the Em-trak B100. It appeared promising, as it has two NMEA 0183 ports and an NMEA 2000 port - on page 19 its manual says: "The ports have bidirectional multiplexing, which means any messages which are received via the high speed are automatically transmitted via the low speed port and vice-versa". But this appears to refer to the NMEA 0183 ports _only_, and not the NMEA 2000 port. Therefore it does not help in getting data from the old log and anemometer into the chartplotter.

The Vesper Marine WatchMate XB-6000 says it "translates NMEA 2000 instrument data such as heading, wind, depth, speed, log, and temperature" but, likewise, it doesn't seem to put NMEA 0183 data onto the NMEA 2000 bus, either.

I'm surprised by these findings, because I would have thought that my requirements were pretty common ones.

I'd appreciate there forum's thoughts. I wouldn't be surprised if I've made a dumb mistake, because I am new to marine navigation equipment.

 

[PaulRainbow]

A Garmin Echomap would be a good plotter solution, it has 0183 and N2K functionality and comes with full UK charts, all of which make it a better buy than the Vulcan, IMO. It has built in GPS and will send GPS data to your VHF via 0183, which the Vulcan won't do as it only supports N2K.

The Em-Trak B100 is a good AIS solution as it also supports 0183 and N2K. It will send AIS data to the plotter over N2K whilst simultaneously sending GPS data to the VHF (rather than using the plotter GPS).

Those old instruments might prove more trouble than they are worth in terms of connecting to the plotter, not even sure why you'd want to connect most of them. Would need to know exact makes and models to best advise what can and can't be connected.

 

[pvb]

Gosh, those old VDO instruments have lasted well! They must date from the early 1980s. I suspect you may find that, if they do output NMEA0183, it might be in early format sentences which may not be recognised by modern instruments. The only real way to find out is to try it and see.

You need to be very careful when you're looking at the specifications of chartplotters, it's a veritable minefield! And you also need to look at future-proofing your chartplotter investment as much as possible. In my mind, that means a new plotter has to be NMEA2000 compatible. You might also consider whether you might want to add radar at some point in the future.

The B&G 7FS is a bargain basement plotter (now discontinued but some stock around). Note that you can't add a radar to it. If you might want to add a radar, you'd need the B&G 7R, which you can get for around £580 from Hudson Marine.

PaulRainbow has suggested the Garmin Echomap, which does come with UK charts, but it doesn't have NMEA2000 connectivity and you can't add a radar to it.

You might have a look at the Garmin GPSMAP722, which does have both NMEA0183 and NMEA2000 connectivity, plus the ability to add a radar. Cactus have it for £660.

The em-trak B100 is a good quality, European-built transceiver with a 3 year warranty and NMEA2000 connectivity. I'd buy it anytime in preference to a Matsutec.

EDIT: That's a nice looking Trintella! And I see it has an olde worlde clockwork radar installed already at the chart table. I still think that you should consider the option of adding radar to a new chartplotter in the future, as it would give you radar in the cockpit (I'm assuming you'd put the plotter in the cockpit) as well as the possibility of viewing it as a radar/chart overlay, which is a great help in interpreting radar images.

 

[prv]

I assume these run on NMEA 0183 connections.

I don't think that's a safe assumption. I don't recognise the specific model, but there's no requirement for instruments to have any form of data output (I believe Nasa Marine still sell plain standalone instruments to this day) and older ones are particularly unlikely to until proven otherwise.

Pete

 

[KompetentKrew]

Those old instruments ... not even sure why you'd want to connect most of them.

Well, I thought doing so would make wind and log data available to the plotter, desirable so it can calculate course-to-steer and such?

 

[KompetentKrew]

Gosh, those old VDO instruments have lasted well! They must date from the early 1980s.

It doesn't surprise me to learn they're that old - a Neko autopilot is also installed.

You need to be very careful when you're looking at the specifications of chartplotters, it's a veritable minefield! And you also need to look at future-proofing your chartplotter investment as much as possible. In my mind, that means a new plotter has to be NMEA2000 compatible.

These were much my thoughts - I didn't want to get bogged down in the chartplotter choice here, because I am reasonably technical, and normally regard myself as good at reading manuals and specifications.

NMEA 2000 seems inevitable - if I avoid it now, it'll just catch up with me later.

I was hoping not to have to spend more money on new windmeter and log, though, on the assumption that the existing ones are working. I thought replacing them would cost £1000 or so?

 

[pvb]

These were much my thoughts - I didn't want to get bogged down in the chartplotter choice here, because I am reasonably technical, and normally regard myself as good at reading manuals and specifications.

NMEA 2000 seems inevitable - if I avoid it now, it'll just catch up with me later.

I was hoping not to have to spend more money on new windmeter and log, though, on the assumption that the existing ones are working. I thought replacing them would cost £1000 or so?

Yes, new instruments are expensive, although a single digital display head can show virtually anything, if you don't mind button-pressing.

Choosing a plotter now with both 0183 and 2000 functionality could be the best solution.

 

[PaulRainbow]

The B&G 7FS is a bargain basement plotter (now discontinued but some stock around). Note that you can't add a radar to it. If you might want to add a radar, you'd need the B&G 7R, which you can get for around £580 from Hudson Marine.

PaulRainbow has suggested the Garmin Echomap, which does come with UK charts, but it doesn't have NMEA2000 connectivity and you can't add a radar to it.

You might have a look at the Garmin GPSMAP722, which does have both NMEA0183 and NMEA2000 connectivity, plus the ability to add a radar. Cactus have it for £660.

My bad, should have included the Garmin model. Rather than a discontinued 7" Vulcan, with no charts or NMEA 0183 connections i'd fit the Echomap 95SV, which does include N2K, 0183 and comes with charts.

The GPSmap is a good plotter, but with charts it costs close to £1k for a 7" plotter ! The OP didn't mention radar, but if he does intend to fit it, as you say, he wouldn't be able to do so with an Echomap.

I recently fitted a new plotter to my own boat but the GPSmap was £300 more than the Echomap, plus £300 for charts (included with the Echomap), £300 for a radome bracket and then £1200 for the radome. £2100 for radar overlay on a 9" plotter didn't seem like money well spent for my sailing, the OP might think different.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Well, I thought doing so would make wind and log data available to the plotter, desirable so it can calculate course-to-steer and such?

Depends what you want the plotter to do for you, but it will work stand alone for most things. If you want a fancy plotter with all the electronic sailing bits and bobs, you're looking at a lot more money.

You can fit an Airmar triducer, which would supply depth, speed through the water and water temp to the N2K network for about £250.

Wind data can be fed into the N2K network via an N2K masthead unit for a few hundred pounds.

 

[KompetentKrew]

You can fit an Airmar triducer, which would supply depth, speed through the water and water temp to the N2K network for about £250.

Wind data can be fed into the N2K network via an N2K masthead unit for a few hundred pounds.

This is probably the solution - I thought it'd be more than that.

 

[pvb]

This is probably the solution - I thought it'd be more than that.

Most people would want to show that information on a display head, rather than trying to view it on a plotter. Display heads are typically another £400-500 each.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

It doesn't surprise me to learn they're that old - a Neko autopilot is also installed.


These were much my thoughts - I didn't want to get bogged down in the chartplotter choice here, because I am reasonably technical, and normally regard myself as good at reading manuals and specifications.

NMEA 2000 seems inevitable - if I avoid it now, it'll just catch up with me later.

I was hoping not to have to spend more money on new windmeter and log, though, on the assumption that the existing ones are working. I thought replacing them would cost £1000 or so?

More like £1300 plus installation costs which may depend on a number of things.
For example I had an even older depth sounder on my boat and swapped for a modern n2k DST. The through hull needed replacing and the new one is much larger which due to my hull shape (Twister) requires the fairing to be remodeled. Without this the transducer would be at too shallow an angle.
To get this done professionally is costing more than the unit itself so unless you’re a dab hand at GRP molding you need to consider total costs.

In the end I will have gone from seafarer depth and Stowe towed log to B&G triton2 with wireless wind.
Total cost including installation £2000 and change. That’s before AIS. I’ve opted for receive only via the VHF com for now as the instrument budget is blown for a year or two but will add probably an em-trak later.

For plotter I’m sticking with my iPad with all the boat data sent via WiFi. Cheaper and more flexible solution than a plotter if you already have an iPad.

 

[olly_love]

This is also something we have just been going through,
We have Tacktick instruments which are 0183, and wanted a plotter which would keep it all 0183 (save the £££ on converters)

I did buy a Garmin 4008 which can take N2K and also 0183 but its too big for our boat if its of interest im selling it here https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garmin-4008-Chart-Plotter/292975613486

We have now bought a Garmin 557 which can take N2K and 0183 and are buying a 102 AIS as well but a little sceptical on why they are so cheep?

With your old instruments you may struggle though?
Perhaps get Speed and depth but apparent wind etc will be a struggle

 

[pvb]

....and are buying a 102 AIS as well but a little sceptical on why they are so cheep?

They're cheap because they're not as good as some other transceivers! You could spend a bit more and get an em-trak B100, which has NMEA2000, NMEA0183 and USB connectivity. It's waterproof. It's built in Europe to high quality standards. It's backed by a 3-year global warranty. Buying stuff cheap from China can be attractive, but if it goes wrong it can become difficult.

 

[KompetentKrew]

Most people would want to show that information on a display head, rather than trying to view it on a plotter. Display heads are typically another £400-500 each.

Raymarine i70s can be surprisingly affordable on eBay - for their delight of display options and their gorgeous night mode, I have long been wanting some.

 

[KompetentKrew]

You can fit an Airmar triducer, which would supply depth, speed through the water and water temp to the N2K network for about £250.

Do you have a specific model in mind, please, Paul?

Airmar seem to make a large number of triducers, and they look largely all the same to me.

 

[pvb]

Raymarine i70s can be surprisingly affordable on eBay - for their delight of display options and their gorgeous night mode, I have long been wanting some.

Yes, you can get some cheap second-hand ones on eBay from time to time. The brand new ones on eBay seem to be around £400.

 

[pvb]

Do you have a specific model in mind, please, Paul?

Airmar seem to make a large number of triducers, and they look largely all the same to me.

It's the DST800, which outputs speed, depth and water temp directly in NMEA2000. I have one on my boat, and it works well. The housing incorporates a valve to minimise the amount of water which enters when you remove the transducer.

Sold by Garmin, B&G, Raymarine, etc. Worth checking prices and specs carefully, to ensure that the one you buy has NMEA2000 output (the Garmin version is around £250).

 

[maby]

Check the detailed specifications of the current generation of Raymarine plotters - talk to Raymarine pre-sales support if necessary. We had their previous generation of plotters on our boat (E90W) and not only did it talk both NMEA0183 and NMEA2000, it also did an excellent job of bridging the two networks with protocol translation. For some reason, Raymarine did not bother to publicise that - I discovered it while digging around in the system configuration screens and tested it out. I subsequently mentioned it to Raymarine support who said something along the lines of "oh, yes, they have always done that - don't we document it?"

 

[PaulRainbow]

Check the detailed specifications of the current generation of Raymarine plotters - talk to Raymarine pre-sales support if necessary. We had their previous generation of plotters on our boat (E90W) and not only did it talk both NMEA0183 and NMEA2000, it also did an excellent job of bridging the two networks with protocol translation. For some reason, Raymarine did not bother to publicise that - I discovered it while digging around in the system configuration screens and tested it out. I subsequently mentioned it to Raymarine support who said something along the lines of "oh, yes, they have always done that - don't we document it?"

Some new Raymarine plotters no longer have NMEA 0183. Some just have N2K, which means adaptors even if fitting to other Raymarine current equipment, which is still mostly STNG.

The Garmin plotters with N2K and 0183 behave as you describe. My plotter is on a N2K network, everything is N2K except the autopilot (Simrad wheel pilot). It outputs data to the AP, including wind data, over NMEA 0183.