Acceptable new boat defects

[Daydream believer]

Can't believe people are finding there windows leaking from new - makes you wonder what the rest of the workmanship is like - it's really not hard to fit windows properly

Dead right. If you take that a bit further some builders are fitting steel frames in yachts. It makes one wonder if they cannot fit a window how can they bond load bearing steel to GRP. If that went wrong one would have real trouble on their hands

 

[Paddingtonbear]

What I find astonishing is that members of this thread are prepared to accept any defects at all. They must have been or continue to be, by the very nature of having hundreds of thousands of pounds of 'spare' cash to spend on a boat very successful in their chosen profession. One wonders how with so little concern for detail and quality. Or as my late mother would have said "All dinner jacket and no dinner"

 

[Daydream believer]

What I find astonishing is that members of this thread are prepared to accept any defects at all. They must have been or continue to be, by the very nature of having hundreds of thousands of pounds of 'spare' cash to spend on a boat very successful in their chosen profession. One wonders how with so little concern for detail and quality. Or as my late mother would have said "All dinner jacket and no dinner"

But how do you know there are defects until you have had the boats 2 months. If the windows leak you are hardly likely to know when you buy the boat. Or even of there is a gas leak or a leak in the anchor locker

 

[maby]

What I find astonishing is that members of this thread are prepared to accept any defects at all. They must have been or continue to be, by the very nature of having hundreds of thousands of pounds of 'spare' cash to spend on a boat very successful in their chosen profession. One wonders how with so little concern for detail and quality. Or as my late mother would have said "All dinner jacket and no dinner"

I expect the defects to be fixed soon after they are detected. There are still defects turning up on our boat after more than a year - do you want the dealer to run the boat for a couple of years before they hand it over? You would be taking possession of a second-hand boat!

 

[sailorman]

I expect the defects to be fixed soon after they are detected. There are still defects turning up on our boat after more than a year - do you want the dealer to run the boat for a couple of years before they hand it over? You would be taking possession of a second-hand boat!

Oyster run systems for 4 > 8 weeks before hand over & expect to be "beyond the owners expectations"

 

[rwoofer]

What I find astonishing is that members of this thread are prepared to accept any defects at all. They must have been or continue to be, by the very nature of having hundreds of thousands of pounds of 'spare' cash to spend on a boat very successful in their chosen profession. One wonders how with so little concern for detail and quality. Or as my late mother would have said "All dinner jacket and no dinner"

We don't, it's just trying to get dealers to fix them. I had a very methodical list of snags that I updated every week and inspected, the problem is that the dealers soon lose interest if you've handed over the money (which most contracts force you to do). Usually the best way to reach conclusion is to prioritise the important ones, knowing that you'll probably have to sort the minor ones yourself.

 

[Tranona]

Oyster run systems for 4 > 8 weeks before hand over & expect to be "beyond the owners expectations"

That is part of the reason why buyers of such boats are happy to pay the 50% or so premium over mass production boats of similar size. But it still does not guarantee a fault free boat.

 

[PeterR]

I don’t know any owners of new boats who haven’t had problems. I think all you can do is go for a maker and dealer with a good reputation for sorting out problems.

When I bought a new Dufour 5 years ago she had a large number of minor problems and two major ones. The local dealer lost his franchise a week before the boat was due to be delivered by road to the east coast and she was instead delivered to the west country. The dealer there – no longer trading - failed to spot any of the problems and the boat was delivered by sea with a severe leak and a faulty charging system. There were a multitude of leaks but the worst were where the bow well drain holes had been drilled through the hull below the level of the bow well!

Fortunately the new east coast dealer in Ipswich was very good at sorting out most of the minor problems and after a couple of months the builder sent a man in a van out from La Rochelle to sort out the leaks and resultant damage to the internal woodwork. He did a good job but it took me another five years to track down the last of the leaks.

You might think this story would lead me to buy British but a couple of years ago a member of our club bought a Southerly 35. He is tight lipped as to exactly what was wrong with the boat but it was so serious that in effect he rejected it as unfit for purpose. Southerly took it back and gave him a good deal on upgrading to a bigger boat to keep him quiet. It doesn't say much for their quality control but at least they ended up with a happy customer.

 

[Paddingtonbear]

So given all this grief - holes below the waterline indeed! why does anyone buy a new boat? apart from the usual fools who want to look flash. Surely it would always be better to buy once all the snags are sorted, provided of course that they are and all repairs are fully documented. This leads me to another question, given all that has gone before why do new boats cost so much?

 

[maby]

So given all this grief - holes below the waterline indeed! why does anyone buy a new boat? apart from the usual fools who want to look flash. Surely it would always be better to buy once all the snags are sorted, provided of course that they are and all repairs are fully documented. This leads me to another question, given all that has gone before why do new boats cost so much?

Can't speak for others, but we buy new following a near miss with a second hand boat that had several potentially very expensive defects which the seller did not disclose. They showed up in survey and we pulled out. Between the survey and travelling, we lost around £1000 and became very nervous.

Buying new from a reputable manufacturer, you have a good chance of getting these fixed under warranty. Buy second hand and you are on your own. Even the survey is of limited value - it's usually phrased in such a way that it would be difficult to bring a claim for negligence. In the case of the second hand boat which we nearly bought, I had to go back to the surveyor asking if he was prepared to give a categorical commitment that the boat was free of any serious defect. He refused and I used his refusal to back out of the purchase.

As far as price is concerned, it's all a question of negotiating hard. I'm told that the dealers for the big four or five AWB manufacturers have a profit margin of around 45% on list price - they have plenty of scope to discount. We are now planning to upgrade our current boat and one dealer has offered me a trade-in value which was close to £10k more than we paid for it!

 

[sailorman]

That is part of the reason why buyers of such boats are happy to pay the 50% or so premium over mass production boats of similar size. But it still does not guarantee a fault free boat.

And probably the only UK manufacturer trading continually in excess of 30 years without going to the wall. They must have done something right

 

[michael_w]

All boats need fixing.

It must be very frustrating to the owners of new boats trying to get warranty work completed. Alternatively pleading and then threatening agents to get off their colective backsides and get on with things. Especially once the boat has been sailed away from the agent/builders home port.

As the owner of 25 year old boat, I just get on and fix her.

 

[maby]

All boats need fixing.

It must be very frustrating to the owners of new boats trying to get warranty work completed. Alternatively pleading and then threatening agents to get off their colective backsides and get on with things. Especially once the boat has been sailed away from the agent/builders home port.

As the owner of 25 year old boat, I just get on and fix her.

The dealer who sold us our current boat has been very responsive to all issues. The fact that he is hoping to supply the next boat is possiby concentrating the mind, but I do get the impression from my contacts with them that they do take the care of all their customers seriously. It's a competitive market and the total number of new boats sold each year is small, so they really cannot afford to get a bad reputation.

 

[charles_reed]

Zero defects might be an expectation - but one that is bound to be disappointed. But then pessimists are never disappointed - only optimists.

It is quite impossible to inspect out every fault as anyone who's been involved with QAS will know. A 99.99% perfect car will have 19 defects - many ignored by new owners who are plain ignorant.

I suspect a boat is as complex a build as a new car so I'd expect any new boat to have lots of faults - reduced by those suppliers who thoroughly "burn-in" a boat.

 

[Oscarpop]

As far as price is concerned, it's all a question of negotiating hard. I'm told that the dealers for the big four or five AWB manufacturers have a profit margin of around 45% on list price - they have plenty of scope to discount. We are now planning to upgrade our current boat and one dealer has offered me a trade-in value which was close to £10k more than we paid for it!

Regarding that statement, a few years ago I was weighing up the options of buying an AWB and had the options list e mailed to me by the broker.

For some reason, something went wrong and I was able to see the column that showed what the extras cost the dealer.

In many cases there was a 400% mark up. Some like radar for instance only had a 50% mark up.

I told the dealer what he had done and he was hugely apologetic, horrified and asked that I delete the list ( which I duely did) .

Saying that, I have only once bought a new car, but where possible would always buy a new boat. Its really not about being flash, but about knowing exactly what had happened to the vessel from day 1.

At least 10% of the sailors I know are a liability on the water, knock the living sh*t out of their boats and dont maintain them well.

 

[maby]

Regarding that statement, a few years ago I was weighing up the options of buying an AWB and had the options list e mailed to me by the broker.

...

Saying that, I have only once bought a new car, but where possible would always buy a new boat. Its really not about being flash, but about knowing exactly what had happened to the vessel from day 1.

At least 10% of the sailors I know are a liability on the water, knock the living sh*t out of their boats and dont maintain them well.

Exactly - my insurance covers me for damage I do to the boat, but not for damage which the previous owner did!

 

[rwoofer]

I think the real point here is that when buying new, the service of the dealer/agent is what really makes the difference. People I know who have had good dealers have been very pleased with the new purchase experience, even with plenty of snags.

I learnt this the hard way. Unfortunately some marques only have one dealer, so if they have a poor reputation you are stuck. Maybe manufacturers need to monitor their dealers better, like the car manufacturers do.

EDIT: Going back to the thread title, I think we should differentiate between snags and defects. To me a snag is a defect that the dealer willingly fixes as part of the commissioning/handover. The real defects are what warranty is for.

 

[Daydream believer]

So given all this grief - holes below the waterline indeed! why does anyone buy a new boat? apart from the usual fools who want to look flash. Surely it would always be better to buy once all the snags are sorted, provided of course that they are and all repairs are fully documented. This leads me to another question, given all that has gone before why do new boats cost so much?

I am not sure I appreciate your comment about fools looking flash
I bought a new boat for a number of reasons
1) I did not want something that had already been fingered & abused by another owner
2) I wanted a boat that would at least give me a few years before I had major works to undertake
3) I wanted the latest design
4) I wanted something that suited me
5) & finally (having worked all my life to get to this position)--because I can now afford one.

I do not accept that a second hand boat has had the snags sorted. What one gets is the previous owner's interpretation of "OK"& one does not really know if everything is working as it should- survey or no survey. People treat boats differently & their interpretation of acceptable may not match mine

Re the cost. Well I agree some marques seem well overpriced & one does not always get the "extra" quality relative to the extra cost.
What does concern me is that there are clearly boats of all price ranges being sold with snags or defects. My original post was to get opinions as to what would be acceptable. I also wanted to get a feel for how the more expensive boats faired & the answer seems " not much better"

 

[McKimm]

Interesting reading. I have never bought a foreign built boat in the UK and I never will.

What a difference buying direct from the builder. I have had two new boats from Rustler Yachts and it has been a very different experience.

Yes, I am a blatant fan, but there are good reasons for that.

When you are having a boat built by them you can be intimately involved in the construction process, and it opens your eyes up to the difficulties of taking many disparate products from several countries and having to make them work for the customer in a perfectly seamless way.

The new owner can also sometimes pressurise the builder to hand the boat over as they want to go sailing.

I like Rustlers approach. You take delivery of your boat, but everyone understands that the thing needs to be shaken out. It's not until you go sailing and put things under load that you can bring to the surface potential issues. Even with the best construction methods it takes a while for things to settle down.

With this in mind we found it is best to go sailing, but base the boat near the factory for a period of weeks. The engineers, joiners, riggers and sailmakers are all then easily to hand and issues can be resolved quickly and cost effectively.

They also hire in a non employee that has not been involved in the construction process to cast a fresh eye over the boat during the commissioning process. It's amazing how easy it is to miss something due to familiarity.

Despite all of this, its inevitable that there will be minor issues. It's how the company handles them that matters and when large sums of money are involved I would much much rather be dealing with someone that has the resources to resolve them than an agent who may be here today, gone tomorrow.

Totally agree with the above- you get what you pay for. If I had the money I would want to be involved with the build and know what I was having made. A boat is not an 'off the shelf product' like cars have become.

 

[Oscarpop]

The other thing about buying a prestige marque from new is that there is very little depreciation on the boats over the first say five years. It makes for a slightly better investment.

My friend, Bavaria 42 4 years old. Paid £145. Now he hopes for £110k but may have to settle on £90k.

Southerly 38. Paid £x.

2010 models now selling at £x. ( exactly the same price)

There is method to this madness. Well at least some.