Acceptable new boat defects

[Daydream believer]

So really it seems we have to accept defects but we are then at the mercy of the dealer. There are some excellent dealers but unfortunately some poor ones
That is why I am worried about defects. It is not so much that there could be problems but how well they are likely to get repaired. Silly little ones can be sorted by the owner but if there is something more difficult it could ruin a seasons sailing

I know of a motorboat owner who had the new boat delivered to the dealers yard but still had to wait ages for the dealer to prepare. When launched he asked for instruction re use of the main items & a test trip. He was told that he could only have a 10 minute trip as there was not enough fuel for him to get to his marina 9 miles away & he got minimal instruction. He had numerous problems which were not looked at by the dealer & when he went to sell the boat after 350 hours use he was told that the hull had delaminated which cost a fortune to sort before he could sell it . A 200k boat finally sold for 75k with only one & a half seasons use by that time the engines had to be removed & re fitted. Soon after he collected the boat the steering had a fault, the bow thruster was defective. None of these items were sorted by the dealer

 

[Resolution]

I fear that if you want to achieve zero defects you will have to pay quite a lot more than usual list prices.
Two key points:
1. Inevitable human error rates mean that some modern production-line yachts are more accurately made than some expensive hand made yachts.
2. Commissioning and warranty work costs the manufacturer and or dealer, anything up to about 5% of the list price. Just how much they allocate to clearing up problems can make a vast difference to the new owner.

 

[chrisbitz]

Surely, before you hand over your substantial cheque, couldn't you get some sort of statement in writing exactly what sort of faults could be expected to be acceptable, or something like that?

 

[maby]

+1

And if, as the thread suggests, it's not, why does anyone ever buy one?

Buying 2nd hand, as I have always done, means substantially lower price, lots of "extras" already fitted (i.e. she's truly ready to sail away, unlike the claimed sailaway deals from new boat dealers) and the built in defects have already been sorted.

This post is probably a mistake. I should be encouraging the world to buy new boats, so the supply of 2nd. hand bargains remains for my benefit.

There are pros and cons for both new and second hand. Obviously you can save a lot of money going second hand, but you are at the mercy of your surveyor and the previous owner. Before buying our current boat, we came close to buying a second hand Bavaria. The surveyor identified a leaking keel joint and loose keel - it transpired that the boat had been run aground and the owners had attempted a bodged repair.

If I run our boat aground and crack the keel joint, my insurance will pay; if it turns out that the previous owner did it, my insurance will not want to know.

 

[Tranona]

So really it seems we have to accept defects but we are then at the mercy of the dealer. There are some excellent dealers but unfortunately some poor ones
That is why I am worried about defects. It is not so much that there could be problems but how well they are likely to get repaired. Silly little ones can be sorted by the owner but if there is something more difficult it could ruin a seasons sailing

No different from buying any other high value, complex manufactured product such as a car, aircraft, house etc. Do you homework, find out as much as you can about the builder and their representative (dealer or agent - different things) and assess their capability to provide you with what you want. Few are out to "do" you, although clearly some are more competent than others. Be clear about what your expectations are and try to be a "good" customer. If you do not feel you are capable of or knowledgeable enough to make your own judgement then employ a professional.

If you are risk averse then clearly go for an established builder with a strong reputation which might mean paying more but equally might rule out some very desirable boats. Sellers want happy customers so it is part of your role as a buyer to give them the opportunity to meet your expectations so don't screw them down and make impossible demands. Not unreasonable to withhold part of the final payment subject to a clear surveyors report after delivery and trials.

Inevitably you hear more about problems than good experiences but would suggest the latter are far more common. If they were not, builders would soon go out of business. Remember your contract will almost certainly be with an intermediary if you are buying a volume production boat so you need to consider both the intrinsic value of the product and the people responsible for getting it into service for you. That includes their ability to fit your "extras" and make sure everything works - which is where many of the issue lie, rather than design or manufacturing faults.

 

[Daydream believer]

Can't understand.
At the mercy of the dealer!? Or maybe my understanding of English is so poor... No, we are not
You pays Your money and takes Your choise.
Don't hand the money until satisfied

Proper way of doing business is subject to survey and trial.
Some defects are so deeply hidden they will not show. That's what warranty and such is for. Only for this.

As for motor boat - why did he buy? From someone who treats a customer with 220 k in such a way?

Motor boats have huge power and hull is highly stressed, while constructors are saving weight for speed/economy reason. Seems logical, but then again all those marbles and wine lockers are heavy... So the boat is best kept in marina, in a seaway it's possible to overload the construction. Cored hulls are prone to delaminate from pounding on water with quite a speed,

When i bought my last boat i paid a deposit. When the boat was built the builder asked the dealer for the balance & the dealer asked me for payment in full. The boat was delivered to the dealer & finished off. It was then delivered to me. The dealer spent 2 hours gpingopver the operations
I was certainly not going to send a surveyor to look at a new boat in Germany
I had already paid before i had seen.
I believe that is quite normal
Re construction- one can only assume that the boat os designed to work

Re the motorboat. The customer ordered the boat. It was delivered to the dealer in the winter & paid for. He customer went abroad & asked for the boat to be ready on a certain date. When he returned dealer had not launched- said he had been too busy. When it was launched customer asked for sea trial. Dealer was reluctant & said there was not enough fuel. The customer is not a bolshey type but very calm & is averse to confrontation
At this stage it is too late to back out. You do not have survey reports on new standard boats. You may on a one off but that is different
It is easy to talk about surveys but when you are eagerly waiting for your new pride & joy you do not start having surveys etc & getting confrontational. A new standard boat should be up to spec

 

[maby]

You will, of course, inspect the boat on delivery and should refuse to accept it with any significant defects, but don't forget that these are large, complex machines and not all defects will be immediately obvious. Most of the defects we have needed to get rectified on our boat only showed up weeks, or even months, after delivery. A significant GRP void popped almost exactly a year after delivery.

 

[wotayottie]

Boats are still largely hand-made, so the predictability of automated production-line assembly can't be achieved. So it's inevitable that there will be a "snagging list" with any new boat. I don't think more expensive boats escape this scenario - possibly because the owners are likely to have higher expectations.

A common sense answer. I'd go a bit further - you are if anything more likely to get small problems with an expensive low volume boat than with a mass manufactured boat from Bav or Jeanneau etc. The reason is that machines are more reliable than people and people working with a rhythm on one job are more reliable than people dotting around doing several jobs. Its why in the old days a Merc was always more reliable than a Rolls.

 

[Resolution]

A common sense answer. I'd go a bit further - you are if anything more likely to get small problems with an expensive low volume boat than with a mass manufactured boat from Bav or Jeanneau etc. The reason is that machines are more reliable than people and people working with a rhythm on one job are more reliable than people dotting around doing several jobs. Its why in the old days a Merc was always more reliable than a Rolls.

Well expressed. Quite right.

 

[rwoofer]

The only time I had a new yacht, I found the whole snagging exercise so demoralising it took away the enjoyment of the boat for 18 months. It was a low volume quality boat, so I was under no illusions that there will be more snags than a high volume production boat. However the problems were exacerbated by the fact that it was a SIBS show boat, so the production was rushed to make it in time and then the boat got badly damaged whilst at SIBS.

All of that would have been manageable with a good dealer attitude, but unfortunately the dealer did not know the boat (it was the first in the country), took 5 months to repair the damage and commission the boat and eventually went bust before the snagging was complete. The whole thing was a farce and caused endless stress. The only upside was that it was a fantastic boat, just that it took 18 months before I could really enjoy it.

Now I would not buy new unless I had the reassurance from previous owners about the dealers abillity to make snagging less painful for the owner.

 

[William_H]

New boat defects

The problem has already been identified that mostly boats are hand built in small numbers
If you buy an Asian car built in hundreds of thousands then all the possible defects can be identified and resolved long before you get yours. Not withstanding that the Asians tend to be keener to put out better quality.
An aircraft is built strictly to a Type Certificate and frequently the design you buy might be 10 of years old if not older. Defects in aircraft are strictly monitored and categorised right through the life of the plane.
Boats are by contrast often changed in design from one example to the next. My kind of boat has been built for 32 years still in production at about no 350 and it is said not one is the same as another.
So defects are inevitable. Only in huge production can problems be ironed out in design.
I would say buy the design you want new if you can't find second hand and just be prepared for problems and need for change. Just keep your seller up to the job. olewill

 

[Daydream believer]

The problem has already been identified that mostly boats are hand built in small numbers
If you buy an Asian car built in hundreds of thousands then all the possible defects can be identified and resolved long before you get yours. Not withstanding that the Asians tend to be keener to put out better quality.
An aircraft is built strictly to a Type Certificate and frequently the design you buy might be 10 of years old if not older. Defects in aircraft are strictly monitored and categorised right through the life of the plane.
Boats are by contrast often changed in design from one example to the next. My kind of boat has been built for 32 years still in production at about no 350 and it is said not one is the same as another.
So defects are inevitable. Only in huge production can problems be ironed out in design.
I would say buy the design you want new if you can't find second hand and just be prepared for problems and need for change. Just keep your seller up to the job. olewill

Funny you should say that ---it has just reminded me
The only problem i had with my new hand built Morgan car was the mass produced ford engine

I think my Hanse was virtually defect free was because the factory at the time was newish & labpur forces smaller & possibly more caring. It is said some new Hanse's have had problems. It would seem that as the workforce got larger a less caring element may ( note " may" ) have crept in in an attempt to produce more yachts
Nothing to support that - just a feeling & it is why i am worried about what defects i might have to encounter. I would not expect a new Hanse to be better or worse than the other makes of a similar price. I would have expected a more " upmarket" yacht to e spot on. But it seems that does not always happen
My first yacht was built by half a dozen blokes in a yacht builders yard & was perfect. It was great to go every 2 weeks & see it progress & meet & talk to them. They took real pride in it
I do not want second hand--- i already have a "second hand" yacht

 

[Skylark]

Should I expect a running battle with the sales team

I own an AWB which wasn't new but about 3 years old when I bought her. Only after insisting that I met face to face with the owner of the dealership did I make any progress in getting the minor faults rectified.

I'm considering buying a new boat now and I've been in e-mail correspondence with two main agents at oppositie ends of the country.

One said "I'll get back to you" in November.........and I'm still waiting.

The other "I'll get back to you" also in November and followed this with a "did we get back to you" in January. Still hasn't.

I find the industry truly shocking with it's lack of customer focus. About where the UK Car Sales business was in the 1970's immediately prior to the assault by Datsun.

 

[davidej]

The only time I had a new yacht, I found the whole snagging exercise so demoralising it took away the enjoyment of the boat for 18 months. It was a low volume quality boat, so I was under no illusions that there will be more snags than a high volume production boat. However the problems were exacerbated by the fact that it was a SIBS show boat, so the production was rushed to make it in time and then the boat got badly damaged whilst at SIBS.

I always had the rose-tinted spectacles view that a Boat Show boat would be built with extra special care.

 

[Joker]

Under UK law, it is the dealer and not the builder who is responsible for any faults in your new boat.

Most agents consist of one man and a dog in a rented office and have no capital.

He will operate via a limited company.

If you have a major problem, then the builder, mindful of his good name, will step in sort things out. Sometimes he doesn't.

As you might know, I had a serious problem with a new boat. I was strung along at great expense by the agent for more than a year. The builders refused to take any responsibility. I ended up paying for thr repairs myself.

The builders have, I am interested to see, set up under a new name. The agent is still in business. I would not get involved in any way with him for all the tea in China.

Apologies for the rant, but, as they say, caveat emptor.

 

[doris]

6 years ago

Six years ago I bought a new Dehler. My snagging list was minor and the whole experience was a success. Part of the solution was getting three months berthing in the dealers marina as part of the deal(being on site forced action), the other was refusing to pay the final 10% until all probs sorted. Experience was a happy one, the world was a nice place and I am still delighted with the boat. I know many owners of new 'quality' boats but few would go down the same route again.

I look back and speak with dealers/agents today and I cannot imagine myself ever taking such a chance again. I find it totally amazing that the current economic climate has not forced the boat industry find new ways of making the purchase of large items free of transaction risk, and I would include snagging in that. I have spoken with some fairly senior people in the industry, half are in denial, the other in despair.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Interesting reading. I have never bought a foreign built boat in the UK and I never will.

What a difference buying direct from the builder. I have had two new boats from Rustler Yachts and it has been a very different experience.

Yes, I am a blatant fan, but there are good reasons for that.

When you are having a boat built by them you can be intimately involved in the construction process, and it opens your eyes up to the difficulties of taking many disparate products from several countries and having to make them work for the customer in a perfectly seamless way.

The new owner can also sometimes pressurise the builder to hand the boat over as they want to go sailing.

I like Rustlers approach. You take delivery of your boat, but everyone understands that the thing needs to be shaken out. It's not until you go sailing and put things under load that you can bring to the surface potential issues. Even with the best construction methods it takes a while for things to settle down.

With this in mind we found it is best to go sailing, but base the boat near the factory for a period of weeks. The engineers, joiners, riggers and sailmakers are all then easily to hand and issues can be resolved quickly and cost effectively.

They also hire in a non employee that has not been involved in the construction process to cast a fresh eye over the boat during the commissioning process. It's amazing how easy it is to miss something due to familiarity.

Despite all of this, its inevitable that there will be minor issues. It's how the company handles them that matters and when large sums of money are involved I would much much rather be dealing with someone that has the resources to resolve them than an agent who may be here today, gone tomorrow.

 

[doris]

With this in mind we found it is best to go sailing, but base the boat near the factory for a period of weeks. The engineers, joiners, riggers and sailmakers are all then easily to hand and issues can be resolved quickly and cost effectively.

.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[billmacfarlane]

Excel LB show is coming & the current boat is looking a bit tired after 9 years
I was chatting to the owner of a Maxi 1100 & said that whilst they are beautiful boats they are expensive. Problem with the cheaper boats , like my Hanse, are the number of faults new owners sometimes get. At least this would not happen with an "upper class" boat. To my surprise he told me he had a list as long as his arm.

As someone who has owned a Maxi 1100 from new I can confirm what the other owner told you. I've now had 4 windows taken out and resealed, ditto the main hatch. From new the diesel tank leaked, the first window started leaking after 4 years, and she had gel coat blistering after 6 years. The engine stop cable seized after 3 years, an engine mount worked loose after 2, and we had a gas leak from brand new. It was venting out the stern but I had a gas detector fitted immediately. So while she's pricey I don't think she's any better/worse for problems than any other boat. Mind you, you can forgive a lot when you sail her.

 

[Zagato]

I was quite surprised that one particular prestige marque at SIBS displayed a boat with a 1.5" crack in the lifting keel housing and a couple of small holes in the floor (5mm) not good on a 100K boat just where it was very noticeable The answer for the holes was that they were just air pockets but still, I would have checked the boat first and certainly repaired the holes before it was put on display!

Another marque had cracking cockpit seat lids, they were just not strong enough - the problem in this case was that the GRP boat was made abroad so the small firm didn't have the skills to rectify it over hear.

Couldn't fault Swallow Boats for quality and attention to detail

Can't believe people are finding there windows leaking from new - makes you wonder what the rest of the workmanship is like - it's really not hard to fit windows properly