Absolute Growth

[MapisM]

Exactly right, when you visit your local Nordhavn dealer it will become obvious what a real passage maker consists of and costs

What becomes obvious is the silly price they ask for their boats, but if by "cost" you also mean building cost, the reason why it should be proportionally as much higher as they pretend it to be remains a mistery to me.

I mean, I heard all their stories, and then some - also directly from the horse's mouth in Dana Point, btw.
But at the end of the day, when you compare the components and construction of a Nordhavn with a P boat of similar size built by a proper yard, you can easily find out that they are very far from being chalk and cheese.

I made this exercise before buying my current boat, comparing her with a N57 of the same vintage (a model which btw was arguably more solid than the latest Nordies, with a bulbous bow hull inspired by the epic N62), and the result was puzzling to say the least.
There are even some details, like the bilge pumps/alarms system, which is better designed and more redundant in my boat - wtf?!
And even if I'd rather have a single continuous duty 12L engine, than two light duty 15L engines, it's safe to say that for the builder the cost of the latter powerplant is roughly double of the first (all in - even considering how sturdy a single shaft+rudder is).
And when it comes to interiors, I'd choose mine over any Nordhavn I've ever seen.
Otoh, I accept that building costs can be somewhat higher when adopting construction philosophies like the keel cooling and the dry stack, but I don't buy the idea that these things (together with several others) can skyrocket the building costs.

Anyhow, at the end of the day, let's say that I would have still liked a N57 better than a P boat.
But, and it's a BIG but, 3 to 4 times the price for a used one of similar age? You gotta be kidding. :ambivalence:
Of course, I'm saying this also because crossing oceans by boat is imho boring at best and scary at worst, so doing that for pleasure is something I couldn't be less interested in.
For those who are, and don't mind being ripped off, of course Nordies are better than any P boat - even if arguably still not as safe as a good sailboat...

 

[MapisM]

Absolute could be competing in this market too if they had just put a bit more thought into tank capacities

Possibly, but they shouldn't have indulged to the IPS lure, either.
I can't imagine any Fleming boater even going to look at an IPS boat...

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Possibly, but they shouldn't have indulged to the IPS lure, either.
I can't imagine any Fleming boater even going to look at an IPS boat...

But OTOH IPS proved them a winner. They have sold so far much more boats in the same size boats Fleming builds and ever will.
I think the only mistake they have is the range. The slow range on Navetta 73 but 230 nm just okay for Sardinia - Mahon does not cut it.
Fast speed cruise should be about 100 nm more and the boat would be perfect.

I think many builders are missing the boat at the moment as the popularity of Ibiza needs thought on range. This Summer i know many people who did the Sardinia - Ibiza (balearic) jump.
It was the cruising route to do. And its funny that a Baia 63 Azzurra can do it at one go in a few hours while some other yachts cannot.
Once you go above fifteen meters a range of 250 nm exl reserve is the bare minimum, yet today we are seeing many production boats doing just above 200 nm which is what my little ten meter sport cruiser manages with a tank of 520 liters.

 

[Portofino]

What becomes obvious is the silly price they ask for their boats, but if by "cost" you also mean building cost, the reason why it should be proportionally as much higher as they pretend it to be remains a mistery to me.

I mean, I heard all their stories, and then some - also directly from the horse's mouth in Dana Point, btw.
But at the end of the day, when you compare the components and construction of a Nordhavn with a P boat of similar size built by a proper yard, you can easily find out that they are very far from being chalk and cheese.

I made this exercise before buying my current boat, comparing her with a N57 of the same vintage (a model which btw was arguably more solid than the latest Nordies, with a bulbous bow hull inspired by the epic N62), and the result was puzzling to say the least.
There are even some details, like the bilge pumps/alarms system, which is better designed and more redundant in my boat - wtf?!
And even if I'd rather have a single continuous duty 12L engine, than two light duty 15L engines, it's safe to say that for the builder the cost of the latter powerplant is roughly double of the first (all in - even considering how sturdy a single shaft+rudder is).
And when it comes to interiors, I'd choose mine over any Nordhavn I've ever seen.
Otoh, I accept that building costs can be somewhat higher when adopting construction philosophies like the keel cooling and the dry stack, but I don't buy the idea that these things (together with several others) can skyrocket the building costs.

Anyhow, at the end of the day, let's say that I would have still liked a N57 better than a P boat.
But, and it's a BIG but, 3 to 4 times the price for a used one of similar age? You gotta be kidding. :ambivalence:
Of course, I'm saying this also because crossing oceans by boat is imho boring at best and scary at worst, so doing that for pleasure is something I couldn't be less interested in.
For those who are, and don't mind being ripped off, of course Nordies are better than any P boat - even if arguably still not as safe as a good sailboat...

Interesting summation P I tend to agree with the thrust .
Because up to recently my knowledge base of Nordhavens was largely based on what little gems occasionally appear on here .
But that knowledge and thus now informed opinion changed this summer when this towed up next to me .

how to upload an image to the internet

As you can see a N 62 , with bulb bow ( out of shot ) the works .But very limited sun bathing pad space for the Med .
Swedish owner acquired it this season coming from a sail boat , his first mobo .
He wasn’t hugely impressed with it , build niggles and even sea keeping .
They would not go out in other than fine calm ish conditions .
We did daily as you know un phased .Mrs Porto and Mrs N very similar.
Bloke always asked when we return in the evening “ how was it “ ..... “ saw white horses “
Did not what to say really .

Then effective range came up in conversation, you know “ how long does it take to get from here to X etc .
60 miles for me I said two hrs . That’s a 10 hr trip for him as he told me 6. something knots .Hence the weather window factor . Mrs N was not great at sea so that’s a 2 day trip as 5 hrs is enough.
So yeah there’s a bit of slugging it out / boredom.

He had issues with his aircon not up to the job , the charger not keeping up so having to ration appliances and a fuel leak .
Husband and wife + two mopey teenage kids aboard .

Initially my emotions where of envy , but after while they turned to pity .

I did drop my foot in it over a drink and blurt out lines along the effect “ I bet you have bought this to sail it home ( Sweden) “
Got a categorical NO back , and stare off Mrs N ...whoops !
Floating Med apartment coming from sail was the reply .

We are back to how you intend to use it .Thats imho the most singular factor in buying a boat .
Those Ab Navettas meet a lot of folks needs , sort of floating camper van to coast hop in fine weather with plenty of space .

 

[Portofino]

But OTOH IPS proved them a winner. They have sold so far much more boats in the same size boats

In the 45/55 ft range I see demonstrated in La Nap ( Fr Abs dealer ) it’s the ladies on the helm with the joystick.
New IPS is a seller .Agree .
It’s a used 10 y old IPS boat that raisers unexpected bill anxiety and forensic service history examination.

 

[Bouba]

Interesting summation P I tend to agree with the thrust .
Because up to recently my knowledge base of Nordhavens was largely based on what little gems occasionally appear on here .
But that knowledge and thus now informed opinion changed this summer when this towed up next to me .

how to upload an image to the internet

As you can see a N 62 , with bulb bow ( out of shot ) the works .But very limited sun bathing pad space for the Med .
Swedish owner acquired it this season coming from a sail boat , his first mobo .
He wasn’t hugely impressed with it , build niggles and even sea keeping .
They would not go out in other than fine calm ish conditions .
We did daily as you know un phased .Mrs Porto and Mrs N very similar.
Bloke always asked when we return in the evening “ how was it “ ..... “ saw white horses “
Did not what to say really .

Then effective range came up in conversation, you know “ how long does it take to get from here to X etc .
60 miles for me I said two hrs . That’s a 10 hr trip for him as he told me 6. something knots .Hence the weather window factor . Mrs N was not great at sea so that’s a 2 day trip as 5 hrs is enough.
So yeah there’s a bit of slugging it out / boredom.

He had issues with his aircon not up to the job , the charger not keeping up so having to ration appliances and a fuel leak .
Husband and wife + two mopey teenage kids aboard .

Initially my emotions where of envy , but after while they turned to pity .

I did drop my foot in it over a drink and blurt out lines along the effect “ I bet you have bought this to sail it home ( Sweden) “
Got a categorical NO back , and stare off Mrs N ...whoops !
Floating Med apartment coming from sail was the reply .

We are back to how you intend to use it .Thats imho the most singular factor in buying a boat .
Those Ab Navettas meet a lot of folks needs , sort of floating camper van to coast hop in fine weather with plenty of space .

Look at the picture, it has funnels! What more could you want?

 

[MapisM]

But OTOH IPS proved them a winner.

Of course, but that's because their boats aren't targeted at "Fleming boaters" (for lack of a better way to describe connoisseurs boaters, so to speak).
Which makes perfect sense, from an industrial viewpoint: out there in the market, there are many more Sunday boaters than Fleming boaters.
In fact, I would even dare saying that the small range is unlikely to be a problem, since the punters for these "lifestyle trawlers" (if I may steal from Bouba his very effective definition) are more likely to appreciate a bit more internal space, rather than a longer range.

Otoh, when I said that they shouldn't have gone the IPS route, I was replying to Deleted User who envisaged that Abs could compete with Fleming and the likes (because he's a "Fleming boater" at heart! ) just by adding more tankage.
Only in this sense, I added that there's no place for toys like IPS on a serious passagemaker.
And even if I know nothing of Abs Navettas, I can easily guess that they are pretty far from Flemings and the likes in several other ways...

 

[MapisM]

As you can see a N 62

Actually I can't, Porto.
Funny that you should post that pic, because that's exactly the N57 I was talking about! A boat which I know rather well, having seen three of them.
And trust me, regardless of whether their owners appreciate this or not, in a seaway you would be quite happy to spend 10 ours on her, rather than 2 on your Itama. No need to think twice.

Btw, that boat in your pic was probably well specced by her first owner, if the tender and the radars are anything to go by.
Otoh, I'm not surprised to hear that her owners were experiencing some problems - just goes to prove what I said about the equipment of these boats not being so much stellar, when compared to P boats built by good yards.
And also Nordhavns need proper maintenance as any other boats, of course.

All that said, if those Swedish folks would fancy going anywhere in the Med a bit faster (well, MUCH faster, actually) and with similar spaces/facilities from a "floating apartment" viewpoint, I could consider a boat swap.
Trouble is, more than likely they forked out at least three times the amount I paid for my boat, so they might suspect that I'm trying to gyp them.
But the simple truth is, while they bought a very good boat indeed, she's waaaay overpriced vs. her technical content/features.

 

[MapisM]

Look at the picture, it has funnels! What more could you want?

Not funnels Bouba, just one of them.
The one on port side is fake on almost all N57, since afaik they only built a handful of them (arguably the worst) with twin engines.

 

[Portofino]

Actually I can't, Porto.
Funny that you should post that pic, because that's exactly the N57 I was talking about! A boat which I know rather well, having seen three of them.
And trust me, regardless of whether their owners appreciate this or not, in a seaway you would be quite happy to spend 10 ours on her, rather than 2 on your Itama. No need to think twice.
.

I think you missed the point .
With team events the pace is set by the weakest link(s) being for sea legs in passages.
In this case the two Mrs s .
Mrs Porto is reassured so much now ( changed to a Itama from S/ Sker ) and is a willing accomplice going out in a “ seaway “ if it’s only 2 hrs .
How ever much to Mr Nordavns angst after spending all that money Mrs N won’t face “ white horses “ and has had enough after 5 hours out even in calm ish conditions.
Anyhow Mr N was more than happy to plug my hose in after helping with our lines when we returned caked in salt after a spirited run out in a seaway , while Mrs Porto accepted a glass of Prosecco from Mrs N , sipping it on her flybridge as my engines cooled down .They hardly went out .Shame really as I said I was expecting them to have big plans / expeditions ....even a trip back to Sweden .
But I got it wrong and yes it’s a 57 .
It’s based in Imperia and Loano was one trip , they stayed on board 2 weeks in Loano before ( on our advice) going to Varazzi when the sea was flat .
First attempt they turned back as they past Noli towards Savona it was too choppy we were told .
I see loads of fast P boats crossing the horizon toward Genoa , you know Pershing , Baia un phased in a “ seaway “
Thing is they might bounce a bit all be it softly on the deep V hulls and run slower from fast but 25 to 35 knots gets it over with certainty.
I,am with W of PYB long passages are better done faster if you have the fuel .
2-3 hrs or what ever

 

[MapisM]

Well, for those who fear and/or can't stand boat motion at all, neither a Nordhavn nor an Itama are good options - staying on land is, I reckon...

It's just a bit weird that those chaps didn't realize the problem during their previous sailboat experience.
The motion of a full D vessel is as close to sailboats as you can get on a mobo, and without the listing, btw.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

The motion of a full D vessel is as close to sailboats as you can get on a mobo, and without the listing, btw.

Not fully agree in my expeience, and I did manage a 28 meter full displacement Dutch build yacht for a few years.
Once you do proper sailing with a sail boat it is more stable to a displacement craft, jib and main sail upwind, or spinnaker and MS in down wind.

Yes the Disp craft will win in tide only no wind scenario thanks to the stabs, but for the rest I do not think it will be better.
The problem with disp craft is that the power it has does not generate enough down force to reduce rolling.

 

[Bouba]

I thought that big Nordhavns were stabilised by paravanes

 

[Portofino]

Well, for those who fear and/or can't stand boat motion at all, neither a Nordhavn nor an Itama are good options - staying on land is, I reckon...

It's just a bit weird that those chaps didn't realize the problem during their previous sailboat experience.
The motion of a full D vessel is as close to sailboats as you can get on a mobo, and without the listing, btw.

Yes it’s an evolutionary thing .
I started with sail in the UK .N sea to be specific, test escalated to racing in all weathers and boys trips , boys crew roughing it .Mrs Porto raising the kids while Mr off at WE ,s with the lads .
Mr N was a sailer back home in Swedish waters same thing , same parallel boating .
But there becomes a point in the natural evolutionary boat life cycle that this isn’t sustainable. Drivers are stuff like kids growing up and family hols needing to become a bit more involved and inviting to ALL not just the Mr .

But if the Mrs really isn’t that enthusiastic about going deeper time wise into boating due to for want of a better word week sea legs then you are kinda knackered .
I think Scala on here is in a similar predicament .( if I understood his boat search threads correctly re Mrs Scala ? )
There’s probably quite a few boat widows about - left at home .
You can’t say “ stay ashore “ she’s being doing that , well I couldn’t.

So the circle that needs squaring is finding a boat that all can enjoy together .
There isn’t one silver bullet.
Many roads lead to Roma

What iam saying is try to draw a distinction from the 10 hr passage and quick blast 2 hrs .
Remember we are just talking leisure Med use ..... basic holiday boating in fine sumner sunshine .

For Mrs Porto the shorter faster method has worked .
For Mr N the slower longer arguably near sailboat pace even with arguably a hugely capable boat hasn’t worked with MrsN .

I did not go specifically looking for a deep V boat with good rep , we thought they all were much of a muchness the gubbins underneath.
It was the Riva dealer in Monaco after a test run in 52 who kindly pointed us in this direction towards Itama .
I wasn’t fussy just wanted a inclusive solution, sail D speeder , anything ......
So we went down the shorter fast P route in a reputable deep V hull .Which if you think about it is logical get it over fast .
Of course I was and Mrs Porto sceptical as if it you make a real difference to the enjoyment.....But that’s history now .

Hopefully I think Mr and Mrs N are going to try one more season as they only got the N57 mid summer .
We plan to catch up with them ( metaphorically speaking ) next season .

Btw the Varazzi advice from me to them was because we had just day tripped it for lunch , less than an 1 hr for us .Yes the wind whistles down the bay crossing @ Savona but once past Noli it calms .

Interesting cat skinning exercise .

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I thought that big Nordhavns were stabilised by paravanes

Nah they’re almost all stabilised by hydraulic fins these days or gyros on the smaller ones. Some of the older ones were set up for paravanes

 

[MapisM]

for the rest I do not think it will be better.

I didn't say better, just "as close as you can get on a mobo".
Anyway, I very much doubt that anyone who suffers the sea motion of a stabilized N57 would feel comfortable in a similar size sailboat.

 

[Portofino]

Nah they’re almost all stabilised by hydraulic fins these days or gyros on the smaller ones. Some of the older ones were set up for paravanes

As I said listening to the N57 folks ( admittedly my only N owners contact ) and thinking Med use and what W said about a Baia 63 Azurri crossing to a big island in the Med , it does make you wonder which ones got it right ?

Quite a compelling question if there’s a Mrs week sea legs in the equation.

 

[PalmaTarga]

What becomes obvious is the silly price they ask for their boats, but if by "cost" you also mean building cost, the reason why it should be proportionally as much higher as they pretend it to be remains a mistery to me.:

I live in Sweden now, and the cost of everything in Scandinavia is disproportionally more expensive than anywhere else I've lived in Europe. Living costs and taxes (personal and business) are higher, so every hand that's been involved in production throughout the supply chain will bump up prices on anything manufactured in the area.

 

[MapisM]

I thought that big Nordhavns were stabilised by paravanes

That's a buyer's choice, but as Deleted User said, most relatively recent N'havns were built with hydraulic fins.
Fwiw, all the three N57 I've seen had Naiad fins (non-zero speed), and one of them also paravanes.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I live in Sweden now, and the cost of everything in Scandinavia is disproportionally more expensive than anywhere else I've lived in Europe. Living costs and taxes (personal and business) are higher, so every hand that's been involved in production throughout the supply chain will bump up prices on anything manufactured in the area.

Nordhavn is build and finished in China. While this is okay as Yacht Building is today at the lower side of the technological scale, with the exception of some specialized yards who build racing sailing boats or one off motor boats. As for example Persico in Italy who build all Luna Rosa sailing yachts or FB design, and Lynn Morse in USA. Just to name a couple of names. Then okay Europeans and North American yard do have an eye for detail, that possibly the Chinese unless they copy it to the letter they cannot have.