About the point or pointlessness of fitting exhaust gas temperature sensors

Hardmy

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When I bought the boat a couple of years ago, the very first thing I did was to install EGTs on both sides. It proved useful to show temps under different loads (it would sometimes sound the alarm when running the boat on very long passages at slow speeds, i.e. before turbos kick in) and it gave me of course great peace of mind should something go wrong with the raw water flow.

The two past years, the fiberglass exhaust tubes started to slightly leak (the boat is 28 years old), so I decided to change them this spring and install at the same time Centek mufflers. We relaunched the boat last week in Preveza with the aft cabin furniture dismantled in order to check if all was fine. The EGT sensors weren’t fitted back, because I was in a hurry and we wanted to undertake a minicruise with SWMBO and a friend.

So off we went towards the N-entrance of Levkas canal, a short 9 NM passage. My friend was helming from the fly and I was hunting potential leaks (and CO emissions) as well as checking relevant temps with the laser thermometer. All was working fine; water was flowing out of the exhausts so I joined the others on the fly, relieved that the project was successful (and the sound dampening effect was really noticeable).

Soon after, I went down again to drink something and routinely checked the transom, to find out that no water was flowing from the port exhaust anymore! I ran to the helm where the engine temp gauge was just shy of hitting the 100° mark, so I immediately killed it and went in the engine room. A slight smell of silicone (or similar) was noticeable and I quickly found out that the raw water pump belt sprang out of the pulley. Note that the annual service had just been carried out!

Seas were calm so we kept going on one shaft towards the canal entrance. Our luck was that there wasn’t too much traffic in front of the closed bridge (other crews, though looked a bit p****d when we overtook them) and we were able to go alongside on one engine which went quite well because luckily, the usual trade winds didn’t kick in yet. A half an hour later our mechanic was already there and diagnosed a faulty OEM CAT belt which had 0 hours on it. He fitted it back for testing purposes, and it jumped away as soon as we exceeded around 1600RPMs! In 30 years of his career, this happened only for the second time. Unfortunately I didn’t shot a pic of the twist of the faulty part for the forum. But even a trained eye wouldn't have notice it at first sight.

I would put my hand in the fire for my mechanic, Simon Trippier the sole capable CAT expert in the whole area with whom I very happily work since 4 years. He only uses OEM parts, shows the receipts and gives me back the old parts. He fitted back the old belt (which I kept as spare after only 80 hours of use), and we kept going on with an uneventful minicruise (well nearly, since we had a leaking stainless steel fresh water tank, but this is another story and is also about to be solved).

The question is, what would have happened if the raw water flow would have gone unnoticed (altogether or longer than around 5-10 min)?
- Would the muffler and the tubing have melted away? The Centek specs say 176° continuous peak temps, but engine fumes can certainly reach 400° and more.
- Is there an overheating protection on old fully mechanical CAT 3208TAs? If yes, does it kick-in early enough before something starts to burn somewhere down the exhaust system and/or irremediable damages are incurred to the engines?

Voilà, for all those who read this rather lengthy write-up: please install EGTs and don't rely to luck only. 2 x €170 won’t break the bank and give really great piece of mind. In my case, Murphy’s law proved to be true and an event with catastrophic potential materialized the only time I used the boat without EGTs fitted. Needless to say, that our EGT probes go back in right now!

Finally I would like to add, that one should never ever issue a Pan-Pan in Greece, save when lives are really in danger.

And since a post without pics is useless, here were are:
Levkas canal N-entrance (with its new quay 30 minutes after the failure)
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Our playground E of Levkas
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I nearly pulled this rickety pier away. Only to be used in flat calm conditions!
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I completely agree that these temp sensors are a great way to alarm a raw water failure and I would always fit them.

These sensors are after the raw water injection elbow, which means they are different from the EGT sensors talked about on here recently that sense temperatures before the raw water injection.

Nice pics thanks!
 
The question is, what would have happened if the raw water flow would have gone unnoticed (altogether or longer than around 5-10 min)?
- Would the muffler and the tubing have melted away? The Centek specs say 176° continuous peak temps, but engine fumes can certainly reach 400° and more.
- Is there an overheating protection on old fully mechanical CAT 3208TAs? If yes, does it kick-in early enough before something starts to burn somewhere down the exhaust system and/or irremediable damages are incurred to the engines?
As originally supplied by Cat and without any other safety bits added, I believe that the overheating of the liquid in the closed cooling circuit would have started an alarm, eventually.
But whether in the meantime the lack of sea water flow could have melted the exhaust, possibly (heaven forbid!) starting also a fire, that's anybody's guess... :ambivalence:
You've been very lucky to notice the problem, I reckon.

Nice pics and places, anyway. Worth a proper cruise report, if you have others! :encouragement:
 
These sensors are after the raw water injection elbow, which means they are different from the EGT sensors talked about on here recently that sense temperatures before the raw water injection.
How do you know, J? I mean, it's very possible that Hardmy mentioned that in some previous thread and I just can't remember.
But if you are saying so from what he posted here, I don't understand your reasoning.
In fact, I was also going to mention that EGT probes alone would NOT have saved the day, in the event he described... :confused:
 
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Yes any form of EGT is better than none .

The MAN System we have had EGT before the water is injected , to see help access the loading ,
Today ( fresh annual antifoul prop acid clean etc 4 weeks ago ) 28 knots and they say 535 degrees .
Come Sept / Nov that’s 565/575 - due to seasonal fouling .*
Regarding seawater cooling / impeller shreading / intake obstruction- etc
We have “ coolant water pump pressure “ delta .
This is different to EGT,s - it’s the actual seawater pump pressure .

Three modes - sensor error
Outside parameter but ok to continue- investigate
Too low - rpm limit to 1200 from memory .
Alarms and LCD display highlights.

I use the EGT,s to set the cruise speed - Not really so much now May / June - clean ish boat , but more so at the back end Sept / Oct - fouled boat .

As allways the flip side of zillions of sensors is reliability.
They are the only Achilles heal of the modern MAN engines imho .
At the mo I have a “ charge air temp “ saying 9 degrees - no biggie you can cancel the alarm - [the date / time is stored ], so,s its not going off every start up .
It’s on my to do list .

In all 16 different parameters for each engine ; about 4 x 4 pages on the LCD .

* even with regular prop scrapes , there’s an inevitability to fouling generally - P brackets , shafts , rudders and minor slime on the hull .
 
We have “ coolant water pump pressure “ delta.
Waddumean "delta"?
Anyway, I'm afraid that all the numbers you can get from your engine monitoring displays are irrelevant to anyone with Cat 3208 engines, which are 100% mechanical...
 
How do you know, J? I mean, it's very possible that Hardmy mentioned that in some previous thread and I just can't remember.
But if you are saying so from what he posted here, I don't understand your reasoning.
In fact, I was also going to mention that EGT probes alone would NOT have saved the day, in the event he described... :confused:
Because (1) hardmy wrote "I t gave me of course great peace of mind should something go wrong with the raw water flow" and (2) he didn't refit them having fitted new fibreglass pipes which must have been downstream of the water injection because you could not use fibreglass at the 4-500 deg C before the water injection. So it is obvious that hardmy is talking about temp probes *after* the water injection elbow. Which is perfectly fine and I agree these are good things (and I fit them) but they are not to be confused with EGT in the portofino sense.
 
Well, re.1, I was thinking that hardmy might not have thought that lack of seawater cooling has no immediate effect on pre-water injected EGT.
Good point re. 2, though. You're bound to be right, I reckon.

Interesting to hear that you fitted wet EGT on your C32 exhausts.
You're feeding those data into the Maretron display, I suppose? I don't think it can be integrated into Cat displays.
Regardless, I for one would be interested to hear more about that setup.
 
Waddumean "delta"?
Anyway, I'm afraid that all the numbers you can get from your engine monitoring displays are irrelevant to anyone with Cat 3208 engines, which are 100% mechanical...

Delta -= measurement of a range .
It’s about 1,9 Bar at tickover to 3.9 bar @ 2100 rpm
Guess as it spins ,sucks more in as the rpm increases , it’s gear driven the raw water pump .

Back to EGT,s
This moves immediately up and down with the rpm and loading .

For HardMY and JFM they would know immediately if the water flow ( in this case the wet side of the elbow )
If there was a change of flow .

Other “ deltas “ say oil temp to closed cooling temp react more slowly .
Water temp takes minutes to change and oil temp 10,s of minutes, by the time they reach outside any range to alarm or helm notice if no alarms / sentries - if you have any plastic or rubber close to the elbow that relies on seawater cooling for survival It’s too late .

It’s a bit like Water In Fuel Alarms - WIF,s - Although t,other end a different system fuelling
Same preventative principle applies
A simple thing to add to a primary filter like a Racor .
More so these days with common rail .But any water that’s gets through to the pump or injectors it’s too late .Theres nothing more reassuring when I turn the key to the 1 st click to hear the alarms go through there motions AND the WIF ,s alarms and led s light up for 3 seconds and then go out and silence -
Ready to fire up .
It’s like an early morning role call of all the guards .
 
JFM is 100% correct. The probes are downhill the exhaust mixer, where shown temps were around 90°. And sorry if I mixed "EGTs" with "wet EGTs".

Portofino, you've got engines from a complete other generation. My gauges show only a couple of temps and pressures and that's it. Anyway, I'll have to do my homeworks whether CAT 3208TA's have a primary cooling circuit overheat alarm or not.

Re pics, I started to put together a cruise report for 2017 but didn't make much progress. We did the Corinth canal twice, and the Saronic and Argolic gulf (with Aegina, Poros, Hydra, Spetses, etc.). This year we're doing the Peloponnese including Kythira. So I'll try to share some of our adventures...
 
I'll have to do my homeworks whether CAT 3208TA's have a primary cooling circuit overheat alarm or not.
If by primary cooling you mean the raw water circuit of which you experienced a failure, I very much doubt that the 3208 came with any alarm (neither pressure nor temp) installed as standard.
The alarm I mentioned in my post #4 was for the closed circuit filled with fresh water (+glycole and/or rust inhibitors).
But by the time the closed circuit overheats, your wet exhausts potentially ran dry long enough to melt, if not burn.
Of course, it is still possible that the builder installed some alarms on the sea water circuit, but you wouldn't find that in the engine manual, obviously.
Anyway, don't take my word for this, and definitely do your homework - I for one would be interested to hear about the results! :encouragement:
 
My S58 has sensors factory fitted in the rubber section of the exhaust.

if they go off a light comes on and a siren sounds. You cant turn the siren off which frankly is a huge distraction!

The only times they have gone off are for loose connections so far.
 
Mapis, you're right. I meant indeed the closed circuit temperature alarm (but used the wrong word). The temperature gauge of the closed circuit was just shy of the 100° mark, my assumption was it would trigger an alarm what didn't happen. A quick research on boatdiesel reveals that it should, I am back to work now and I left the user manual on the boat. I'll check this point next time I go down to the boat.

As you wrote above, I was very very lucky. While you couldn't touch the Centek muffler because of the heat it apparently survived the event unscathed. I have no clue, how long it would have sustained such a overheating situation before melting or even burning...

FYI, the wet exhaust temperature indicator is a cheapo one from Nasa. It will be reinstalled this week:
image_2014-11-06--1.jpg


I agree that the probe looks a bit flimsy but it worked fine the last 5 years and still looks OK for reinstalling. Last time I used SS clamps together, if I remember well with 3M 5200 fast cure.
image_2014-11-07--1.jpg
 
Sounds like a very good thing to have indeed. Got any pics and/or details about those sensors?

Now I know you have no interest in the picture but just want to put me through the torture of loading an image!

RhDQWeQ.jpg


This one is the Stbd one which is in a metal part of the exhaust. The Port one is in the rubber. This side is metal as the rubber cant have such a small radius.

There is a sensor installed and the plug goes into the sensor and is then held with a central screw.
 
While you couldn't touch the Centek muffler because of the heat it apparently survived the event unscathed.
Did you have a chance to check also the inner part?
Far from wishing you that it's damaged of course, but common sense suggests that heat damages (if any) should have started with the interior first...
 
Now I know you have no interest in the picture but just want to put me through the torture of loading an image!
LOL, why, it ain't THAT complicated...! :D
It's actually interesting instead, many thanks (also to Hardmy!) for the very clear example.

Btw, how come that the grey insulation in your pic is turned brownish?
That's an effect which I usually noticed on the dry section of the exhaust, in some boats.
 
Did you have a chance to check also the inner part?
Far from wishing you that it's damaged of course, but common sense suggests that heat damages (if any) should have started with the interior first...

I did not check the inside yet. This needs to wait until the boat is in Kalamata. All I can say, is that there is no discoloration (or brownish areas) to be noticed on the outside of the muffler and tubing. Moreover the sound dampening effect did not change. I know, this is no guarantee that some damage did not occur. So I'll report on that later.
 
Well, re.1, I was thinking that hardmy might not have thought that lack of seawater cooling has no immediate effect on pre-water injected EGT.
Good point re. 2, though. You're bound to be right, I reckon.

Interesting to hear that you fitted wet EGT on your C32 exhausts.
You're feeding those data into the Maretron display, I suppose? I don't think it can be integrated into Cat displays.
Regardless, I for one would be interested to hear more about that setup.
re 1, you underestimate hardmy :D
I have the halyard wet EGT. They do not feed to maretron. They are like jrudge's and their only function is to sound an alarm telling me instantly that I have raw water flow failure, allowing me to shut down the engine long before an engine overheat. For that function I think they are excellent and would always spec them.
 
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