A very specific chain question (Vyv Cox? Neeves?)

Kukri

Kukri

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I have been reading Vyv’s excellent web page on chain sizes.

http://coxeng.co.uk/anchoring/chain/

I also have in my hand a sheet from EYE Ltd, which measures “C” outside the link whereas Vyv’s table measures “C” inside.



Am I safe in assuming that a windlass gypsy made for American G43 7/16” chain will fit a metric 12mm calibrated short link chain?

It “looks as if it ought to be OK”...?
 
Minn said:
I have been reading Vyv’s excellent web page on chain sizes.

http://coxeng.co.uk/anchoring/chain/

I also have in my hand a sheet from EYE Ltd, which measures “C” outside the link whereas Vyv’s table measures “C” inside.



Am I safe in assuming that a windlass gypsy made for American G43 7/16” chain will fit a metric 12mm calibrated short link chain?

It “looks as if it ought to be OK”...?
Click to expand...

If there’s a problem it’s going to be with the length of the links, not the width dimension which you’re looking at.

That 'outside the link' 'C' width measurement is the 'inside the link' width measurement plus two lots of A. From Vyv's chart for G43 7/16”, that’s 16.5 + 2*11.8, which is 40.1mm. So the 40mm wide metric links will fit as designed with a negligible extra 0.1mm of rattle.

Lengthwise though there’s more difference. By the same logic the metric chain links, at 50mm (36 + 2*12), are 0.8mm longer than the American gypsy is expecting them (35.6 + 2*11.8 = 49.2mm).
 
BelleSerene said:
If there’s a problem it’s going to be with the length of the links, not the width dimension which you’re looking at.

That 'outside the link' 'C' width measurement is the 'inside the link' width measurement plus two lots of A. From Vyv's chart for G43 7/16”, that’s 16.5 + 2*11.8, which is 40.1mm. So the 40mm wide metric links will fit as designed with a negligible extra 0.1mm of rattle.

Lengthwise though there’s more difference. By the same logic the metric chain links, at 50mm (36 + 2*12), are 0.8mm longer than the American gypsy is expecting them (35.6 + 2*11.8 = 49.2mm).
Click to expand...

Thank you very much.
 
I would not assume it will fit.

I'd buy 300mm or thereabouts, longer if possible - and actually try it. Either wrap it round the gypsy or actually run a metre through.

Chain dimensions are nominal, there is variation. Gypsies are more forgiving that they were in the past.

You do not say what sort of windlass you have, horizontal gypsies are more forgiving as they only take the chain over 90 degrees, vertical windlass (vertical shaft) take more of a wrap.

The main issue is that the difference in link length (as Belle Serene has worked out on you behalf) does not look much but it is cumulative. On a 90 degree wrap a few links is not much on a vertical windlass you are talking of many more links and then the cumulative mismatch, I believe, will be an issue.

Options: Buy a new gypsy, expensive (you will shudder). Buy imperial chain. I'm not sure where you want to buy. In all cases, or locations, CMP make both imperial and metric chain and you might find they stock both in all locations - they sell both in Oz (for example) and I'd guess they sell both in the Phillipines. They might stock both in the UK (American do visit and I'd guess some unexpectedly need to buy new chain). Maggi sell imperial chain (and I'd think so might Lofrans).

Note that American G43 chain has different dimensions to American G30, BBB and a slight difference to G70 - and each gypsy is slightly different (though there may be some overlaps).

Sorry cannot be definitive.

The safest way is to try it, you would find a short length of chain useful, if you ever need to tie to a tree or rock - maybe buy a bit more than a metre and you are then kitted out :)

Jonathan
 
I know these are really stupid questions

But why do you want to buy an American windlass? What is wrong with Lewmar, Maxwell, Lofrens, Muir, Quickk to name but a few - or do you mean a windlass that will accept imperial*chain - and then why do you want to that? G43 is roughly 8% stronger than G40. G30 and BBB whether imperial of metric are similar in strength.

Currently most imperial chain is American and made by Peerless (or to a lesser extent Campbell). CMP make any and everything. In terms of strength American chain is not much different to Chinese chain. In Europe a lot of chain is coming out of China - and negative comments are noticeable by their absence - so source has little influence on choice.

Fill in a bit more on the thought process and it might be possible to give a better answer.

There is one American windlass maker, name eludes me temporarily, who makes a stainless windlass - something to really covet (and empty your wallet).

Jonathan

edit

Mot of the international windlass makers, that list above, sell their windlass internationally and have gypsies that will suit a huge cross section of chain, both imperial and metric. So you can buy, for example a 'common' Maxwell windlass and it can be supplied with a gypsy for say 3/8" BBB, G30, G43 and 10mm ISO and DIN (making possibly ass many as 5 different gypsies for the one windlass (some gypsies over lap, reducing the numbers needed). Currently the default supply in America is G43, I don't know why, but you can option other gypsies, and it should be at no cost. You cannot take a Lewmar gypsy and swap to a Maxwell, they have different shaft sizes etc, but you can ring the changes if you opt for a different gypsy from the same manufacturer.

Most manufacturer have spread sheets defining which gypsies fit which of their windlass, any dealer should have the spread sheet(s) and you can sometimes find them (but they are hidden in the website).

There is also an overlap on size - some windlass will take 2 or 3 sizes, so 6mm, 8mm and 10mm say (and the equivalents for imperial 1/4", 5/16" and 3/8th" + all the other variables, BBB, G30 etc etc) - I think this is why gypsies are so expensive - the windlass makers need to be able to supply an extraordinary range.

I'd be a bit twitchy buying a small windlass to take the maximum size of chain, better to consider a bigger windlass using something in the middle of the range. I'd also tend to option a bigger, rather than a smaller motor.
 
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Well spotted!

Confess it was so big I dismissed it from my mind - not the sort of thing you would put in the boot of a conventional motor vehicle and then wheel in a wheelbarrow to your yacht - you would need a forklift.

I focussed simply on the imponderables.

And I think 10mm chain is big!

But for decent chain you need a decent windlass and the manufacturer of stainless windlass in America, came to me eventually - Lighthouse. But if you have a stainless windlass you really need Duplex stainless chain - and then you'd need a mortgage - just for the ground tackle.

Jonathan
 
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Minn, if you are already looking at EYE why not check out their range of windlass gear? I fitted one of these and I’ve been very happy with it. Not a big name but does what it says on the tin.
 
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Minn said:
Yes I’m including the Lighthouse windlass in my short list. It’s beautifully made and it’s the only horizontal that fits nicely between the fore hatch and the inner forestay. I am also looking at other makes, notably Muir and Maxwell, for vertical windlasses.
Click to expand...

Sorry, been involved in other stuff so not checking forums. Jonathan seems to have answered the question although I would tread warily trying to match metric with imperial. ISO has a greater tolerance than DIN, which might help you.

I liked the Muir windlasses very much but at the time the exchange rate made them far more expensive than Maxwell. Our second of these was improved compared with the first for water drainage but I prefer the metallurgy of the Muir.
 
I don't know which gypsies Lighthouse produce (do they produce metric?) but both Muir and Maxwell will offer either. If you wanted a metric gypsy in stainless to fit a Lighthouse windlass (and Lighthouse will not come to the party) then ask for a discount from Lighthouse (suggesting that your purchase of a Lighthouse, minus gypsy, will be a marketing coup for them in Europe) and ask Ketten Walder to quote for a gypsy in stainless to suit. If you need a direct contact send me a PM. KW specialise in custom made gypsies - a well a duplex chain etc

KW produce the Cromox stainless chain, which I think is a G60. Some buyers are buying this product and down size chain size, say from 12mm to 10mm, as the extra strength can, I stress the can, allow this. Obviously 10mm costs less than 12mm - and it might merit investigation. The Cromox 'system' is a package - you can source a complete rode all in the same quality.

My understanding is that Muir still manufacture primarily in Australia and their windlass are bullet proof, but watch for dissimilar metals (aluminium and stainless) - just take care and it will not be an issue. Muir may have engineered this problem out. We chose and use a Maxwell, slightly smaller than your target size :(

Lighthouse are beautiful and have a good reputation (also bullet proof).

Jonathan

Edit

Vyv and my post crossed

I've been involved with old Muir and did not like the metallurgy - though with smaller windlass (Vyv suggests maybe this has changed and improved). I can concur they are expensive (a problem with building in 'the west'). We have been most satisfied with our Maxwell - but the Muir are bullet proof - the problem is an absence of Duralac when they are installed by an independent installer.

close edit
 
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vyv_cox said:
Sorry, been involved in other stuff so not checking forums. Jonathan seems to have answered the question although I would tread warily trying to match metric with imperial. ISO has a greater tolerance than DIN, which might help you.

I liked the Muir windlasses very much but at the time the exchange rate made them far more expensive than Maxwell. Our second of these was improved compared with the first for water drainage but I prefer the metallurgy of the Muir.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much, Vyv. Really appreciate it. I fear the exchange rate may well have a similar effect! Particularly if one has to import US chain to go with a US windlass! (Edited - I’ve just seen Johnathan’s helpful suggestion.)
 
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Neeves said:
I don't know which gypsies Lighthouse produce (do they produce metric?) but both Muir and Maxwell will offer either. If you wanted a metric gypsy in stainless to fit a Lighthouse windlass (and Lighthouse will not come to the party) then ask for a discount from Lighthouse (suggesting that your purchase of a Lighthouse, minus gypsy, will be a marketing coup for them in Europe) and ask Ketten Walder to quote for a gypsy in stainless to suit. If you need a direct contact send me a PM. KW specialise in custom made gypsies - a well a duplex chain etc

KW produce the Cromox stainless chain, which I think is a G60. Some buyers are buying this product and down size chain size, say from 12mm to 10mm, as the extra strength can, I stress the can, allow this. Obviously 10mm costs less than 12mm - and it might merit investigation. The Cromox 'system' is a package - you can source a complete rode all in the same quality.

My understanding is that Muir still manufacture primarily in Australia and their windlass are bullet proof, but watch for dissimilar metals (aluminium and stainless) - just take care and it will not be an issue. Muir may have engineered this problem out. We chose and use a Maxwell, slightly smaller than your target size :(

Lighthouse are beautiful and have a good reputation (also bullet proof).

Jonathan

Edit

Vyv and my post crossed

I've been involved with old Muir and did not like the metallurgy - though with smaller windlass (Vyv suggests maybe this has changed and improved). I can concur they are expensive (a problem with building in 'the west'). We have been most satisfied with our Maxwell - but the Muir are bullet proof - the problem is an absence of Duralac when they are installed by an independent installer.

close edit
Click to expand...

Thanks very much indeed, Johnathan. I will follow up on your most helpful suggestions. PM on the way.
 
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