A Skipper's Responsibilities - RYA Legal

[Tranona]

In a previous thread it was suggested that leisure Skippers were subject to many parts of the MSA. From this thread that appears to be untrue. After the HL threads perhaps it is time for an authoritive statement from Yachtings governing body. I await this with interest.

No, they still apply. Why you don't hear about them is because they are almost impossible to enforce on leisure sailors. The requirements are written in such a general manner that the MCA would have to prosecute by building an individual detailed case. As we have seen with HL, even in a situation which many think should have been an open and shut case, they still failed to get a conviction. So, unlikely they would pursue a misdemeanour by an "ordinary" skipper. As we have seen, though more straightforward in cases that involve say ColRegs or TSS breaches.

Much the same with negligence - very difficult to succeed in a normal social situation such as friends crewing on your boat, but potentially easier (but still difficult) where there is a commercial relationship.

 

[shaunksb]

I suppose setting off in dangerous conditions & ending up with a crewman dead, could fit still that bill.

Actually I don't think it would.

The very fact that you set off with the person illustrates that you didn't feel in mortal danger.


Negligence would depend on the specific circumstances of the case.



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[GrahamM376]

Actually I don't think it would.

The very fact that you set off with the person illustrates that you didn't feel in mortal danger.


Negligence would depend on the specific circumstances of the case.

Much depends on the experience of the people on board and if they have sufficient knowledge to make an informed decision about whether to go to sea.

A yachtmaster for instance would find it more difficult to bring a case against a novice sailor who set out in unsuitable conditions, whereas a first timer with no experience whatsoever to judge whether safe or not, could well do so.

I discussed the need for a "skipper" with the MCA some years ago, during a similar thread on another forum. Their opinion was that on small leisure craft, no particular person has to be in charge and the person in charge can change every few minutes. However, the opinion also was that if experienced persons on board did not take control when they saw a dangerous situation developing, they could be held negligent.

Many years ago, one inquest I attended following a gliding accident decided that the instructor (who survived) was at fault. The pupil had opened the airbrakes without being told to during the final turn, in a wind gradient. The glider stalled and spun in. The verdict was that although the pupil was far enough advanced for the instructor not to have to have his hands on the controls following him through, the instructor should have had his hand near the brakes to stop such a thing happening.

Having attended inquests, I can assure you they are looking to apportion blame and in this litigious age, expect to be sued even by very close friends or their family.

 

[shaunksb]

Having attended inquests, I can assure you they are looking to apportion blame.

It is not the job of the Coroner to apportion blame.

They are there to establish how, when and where a person died.

At best they can issue a narrative verdict (an explanation of the circumstances that led to the death) if they see fit but not so as to incriminate an individual.


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[Enya]

Much depends on the experience of the people on board and if they have sufficient knowledge to make an informed decision about whether to go to sea.

A yachtmaster for instance would find it more difficult to bring a case against a novice sailor who set out in unsuitable conditions, whereas a first timer with no experience whatsoever to judge whether safe or not, could well do so.

I discussed the need for a "skipper" with the MCA some years ago, during a similar thread on another forum. Their opinion was that on small leisure craft, no particular person has to be in charge and the person in charge can change every few minutes. However, the opinion also was that if experienced persons on board did not take control when they saw a dangerous situation developing, they could be held negligent.

Many years ago, one inquest I attended following a gliding accident decided that the instructor (who survived) was at fault. The pupil had opened the airbrakes without being told to during the final turn, in a wind gradient. The glider stalled and spun in. The verdict was that although the pupil was far enough advanced for the instructor not to have to have his hands on the controls following him through, the instructor should have had his hand near the brakes to stop such a thing happening.

Having attended inquests, I can assure you they are looking to apportion blame and in this litigious age, expect to be sued even by very close friends or their family.

This post resonates well with my feelings having considered the matter and all the responses. It is scary to think that one could be sued by people you class as friends but I guess if you are injured you may feel someone should pay and the boat owner/skipper is the one insured.

However, it is comforting to think that the decision to sail puts responsibility onto crew and it is not all on the skipper, regardless of their experience. It may be that crew need to understand this more explicitly. With complete novices, who may require reassurance before racing, I have been careful not to reassure them but to agree when they discuss the risks. They really need to decide for themselves.

More experienced people may need to consider their responsibility for a safe passage and not slavishly allow the skipper to decide all. However, there seems to be a bit of a culture of the skippers word is law, presumably borrowed from Naval tradition. This very undemocratic approach does not chime well with the concept of "duty of care" on all.

I do feel much clearer now about this issue.

 

[Uricanejack]

If you're the only one at the start line then the race is unlikely to happen anyway, so in the real world you'll only be doing what the 'normal' racer is doing. In fact some race commitees have got so cautious of late that it is frustrating that racing is abandoned when it is perfectly feasible to race in those conditions.

Then, if you do race you could argue that you might do something far more recklessly than the opposition, but I doubt anybody would go that far. If you're, for example, sixth around the weather mark and the first five boats put up their spinnaker, then I would suggest you are not being negligent in putting yours up. In practice, if you have less confidence in your own and your crews abilities you much more likely not to put yours up in marginal conditions.

However, if you're sixth around the weather mark and the first five boats don't put up their spinnakers because the conditions are too heavy for them and you know that the boats and crews are better and much more skilled than yours, then it might be reckless to put yours up. However if you'd been practising heavy weather spinnaker work to gain an advantage over the boats that were better to windward, it wouldn't be reckless.

In practice, you're likely to start off as a back of the fleet boat and work your way up the fleet as your skills develop, so by the time you're the first boat around the mark you'll know whether or not you can handle putting your spinnaker up.

Some years ago went racing with a friend of Helensburgh it was about force 9 when we rounded the windward bouy. we were doing well near the front.
The conversation went somthing like this.
"Its to windy for the spiniker"
"nobody else has the spiniker up"
"Maybe we should put the spiniker up"
"what do you think"
" Theres to much wind for the spiniker that would be silly"
"It might be fun"
"lets put the spiniker up"
We put the spiniker up
We broached about three minutes later.
And about every three to five minutes untile we finished down wind leg.
about half the other boats put spinikers up to equall success. The winners didn't.
We weren't actualy last a couple of other boats got in more trouble than us. and found out why you don't knot spiniker sheets
back at the club after wards we all swapped great stories
general consenuos it was fun

 

[dt4134]

Some years ago went racing with a friend of Helensburgh it was about force 9 when we rounded the windward bouy. we were doing well near the front.
The conversation went somthing like this.
"Its to windy for the spiniker"
"nobody else has the spiniker up"
"Maybe we should put the spiniker up"
"what do you think"
" Theres to much wind for the spiniker that would be silly"
"It might be fun"
"lets put the spiniker up"
We put the spiniker up
We broached about three minutes later.
And about every three to five minutes untile we finished down wind leg.
about half the other boats put spinikers up to equall success. The winners didn't.
We weren't actualy last a couple of other boats got in more trouble than us. and found out why you don't knot spiniker sheets
back at the club after wards we all swapped great stories
general consenuos it was fun

It can be fun, but you need a good helm. And someone on the kicker with lightning reflexes.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I discussed the need for a "skipper" with the MCA some years ago, during a similar thread on another forum.

I remember it well, thanks, I learned a lot from it:

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.rec.sailing/msg/1cd14d008ec8ccb7?hl=en-GB

 

[GrahamM376]

It is not the job of the Coroner to apportion blame.

They are there to establish how, when and where a person died.

At best they can issue a narrative verdict (an explanation of the circumstances that led to the death) if they see fit but not so as to incriminate an individual.

Blame, as in "A N OTHER" is guilty of murdering someone, I agree with you.

Depends on usage of word "blame". "Caused by" and "blamed on" have the same meaning.

 

[alant]

Actually I don't think it would.

The very fact that you set off with the person illustrates that you didn't feel in mortal danger.


Negligence would depend on the specific circumstances of the case.



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But, surely if you'r now dead, you obviously were in mortal danger!

 

[shaunksb]

But, surely if you'r now dead, you obviously were in mortal danger!

Good point - well made

I was refering, of course, to the "skipper" not feeling in danger of the conditions.


I'm sure that it can be pointed out that in various races people bring home yachts in all sorts of bad weather. The 1979 fastnet was gusting a F11 in a very exposed position. So how would we be able to define "unsuitable" conditions?



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[alant]

Good point - well made

I was refering, of course, to the "skipper" not feeling in danger of the conditions.


I'm sure that it can be pointed out that in various races people bring home yachts in all sorts of bad weather. The 1979 fastnet was gusting a F11 in a very exposed position. So how would we be able to define "unsuitable" conditions?



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Decision based upon boat, your experience, crew experience, refuge ports, weather, et al.

If you feel you have to question 'if', perhaps you shouldn't!