A question of rules

[Neil_Y]

In my opinion Artemis racing had no rights to gybe and force the other boats to gybe as they had room and could have run dead down wind next to the dockside. Upwind you can have room to tack for an obstruction but not downwind, or that's how I understand the rules.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBszZUZ8ueY

 

[roblpm]

Well I am crap on rules. But also can't comment as the bbc doesn't seem to have put highlights up on iplayer as normal!! I assume that you have bt sport?

 

[lw395]

Racing asy's this is a bit of a grey area IME.
It looks like a continuing obstruction, so Artemis is entitled to room.
If she can sail dead downwind along the obstruction she may have to remain on stbd and sail dead downwind which is slow.
If the obstruction forces her to gybe, or more to the point the outer boats cannot keep clear without gybing, then she becomes leeward boat.

I'd flick the lot of them.
Artemis had no right to gybe, the others were not keeping clear/giving adequate room before she gybed.

This is crash and burn stadium racing and people are taking stupid risks.
You doing Bart's Bash?

 

[savageseadog]

I too can't see how Artemis was entitled to do that. It's possible that the other boats agreed to it, they all wanted to point higher and wanted to gybe as well.

 

[Triassic]

My view is that Artemis was entitled to enough room to bear away and run along the wall, even if this meant going dead down wind and slow. Even if she had gybed onto port in order to do so she wouldn't have acquired any more rights until eventually the next boat across found themselves in the same position having to bear away to avoid Artemis, and if they also gybed Artemis would have been quite entitled to head them up.

I suspect all the skippers saw this situation developing and realised they would all be losers so took the decision to gybe out of the potential problem. Artemis might have been a bit persuasive though and certainly took advantage.....

 

[Ingwe]

Judging by the complete lack of reaction from what I assume is the umpire boat that was directly behind them I suspect that they have amended the RRS in the sailing instructions to mean that you can claim water to gybe at an obstruction as this is probably quite a regular situation stadium racing in these fast cats - imagine if this was windy and you have the whole fleet coming into an obstruction at 20+ knots it would be carnage if the inside boats weren't given some extra protection within the rules.

 

[Neil_Y]

Good point Ingwe, It would have been interesting to see the rules of these races, they also seem to have a different rule for OCS boats just seemed to slow to the back of the fleet and carry ob rather than go back to cross the line. It was fun to watch. I'd just finished the Archipelago raid, normal rules F18's and lots of rocks.

 

[Neil_Y]

The video is on youtube so nothing to do with BBC or BT Sport?

 

[roblpm]

The video is on youtube so nothing to do with BBC or BT Sport?

Highlights finally up on iplayer.

 

[flaming]

Taken from the GC32 Class rules.

(m) Rule 20 is changed to:
20 ROOM TO TACK OR GYBE AT AN OBSTRUCTION
When rule 20 applies, the following arm signals are required in addition to the hails:
(1) for ‘Room to tack’ or ‘Room to gybe’, repeatedly and clearly pointing toward
the other boat; and
(2) for ‘You tack or ‘You gybe’, repeatedly and clearly pointing at the other boat
and waving the arm toward herself.
20.1 Hailing
When approaching an obstruction, a boat may hail for room to tack and avoid or gybe
and avoid a boat on the same tack. However she shall not hail if
(a) she can avoid the obstruction safely without making a substantial course
change,
(b) she is sailing below close-hauled for tacking and above 90 degrees to the
wind for gybing, or
(c) the obstruction is a mark and a boat that is fetching it would be required to
respond and change course.
(d) the obstruction is a boat racing.
20.2 Responding
(a) After a boat hails, she shall give the hailed boat time to respond.
(b) The hailed boat shall respond even if the hail breaks rule 20.1.
(c) The hailed boat shall respond either by tacking or gybing as soon as
possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ for tack or ‘You gybe’ for
gybe and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her or gybe
and avoid her.
(d) When the hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack or gybe as soon
as possible.
20.3 Passing On a Hail to an Additional Boat
When a boat has been hailed for room to tack or gybe and she intends to respond by
tacking or gybing, she may hail another boat on the same tack for room to tack and
avoid her or gybe and avoid her. She may hail even if her hail does not meet the
conditions of rule 20.1. Rule 20.2 applies between her and the boat she hails.

So they have quite clearly added room to gybe into rule 20. Extremely sensible in view of the racing areas they sail in!

So Artemis are in the clear with regard to the initial gybe. Hard to tell what is really going on in the next sequence without knowing if that mark is part of the course or not.

 

[Triassic]

I appreciate what you are saying Flaming however rule 20, amended or not, is still intended to provide a skipper with rights that prevent them from being driven into an obstruction (or over a boundary). It doesn't necessarily give them rights to sail away from it. In this case the skipper to port of Artemis could have altered course to port just enough to allow Artemis to run along the wall without hitting it regardless if they gybed or not. If in doing so Artemis gybed onto port and the other boat remained on Starboard (ie: both boats pretty much dead down wind) then they could have held them there as long as they wanted, however they would have both been going extremely slowly and given the third boat further out has gybed away and is accelerating it wouldn't have done them either any favours. I do think once the centre boat gybed so they were all on port Artemis was a bit cheeky by immediately luffing them.... but that's racing!

 

[savageseadog]

This applies surely:

When approaching an obstruction, a boat may hail for room to tack and avoid or gybe
and avoid a boat on the same tack. However she shall not hail if
(a) she can avoid the obstruction safely without making a substantial course
change

 

[flaming]

I appreciate what you are saying Flaming however rule 20, amended or not, is still intended to provide a skipper with rights that prevent them from being driven into an obstruction (or over a boundary). It doesn't necessarily give them rights to sail away from it. In this case the skipper to port of Artemis could have altered course to port just enough to allow Artemis to run along the wall without hitting it regardless if they gybed or not. If in doing so Artemis gybed onto port and the other boat remained on Starboard (ie: both boats pretty much dead down wind) then they could have held them there as long as they wanted, however they would have both been going extremely slowly and given the third boat further out has gybed away and is accelerating it wouldn't have done them either any favours. I do think once the centre boat gybed so they were all on port Artemis was a bit cheeky by immediately luffing them.... but that's racing!

I'm afraid there you are guilty of trying to make the rules fit your wish of what should happen. They are clear they allow boats to call for room to gybe, there's no ambiguity at all.

It's also worth mentioning they also delete rule 17 in its entirety so clearly they want the boats to engage at all opportunities and use the boundaries as passing opportunities.

 

[Triassic]

I'm afraid there you are guilty of trying to make the rules fit your wish of what should happen. They are clear they allow boats to call for room to gybe, there's no ambiguity at all.

But they are also quite clear in saying that the room has to be necessary to "avoid" the obstruction, (both in rule 20 and the CG32 supplement to it which in reality is only extending the rule to include gybing in addition to tacking). It doesn't say you have to give them room to sail away in the opposite direction!

So in the original example if there had been just the two boats in the race and they were match racing there would have been nothing in the rules to prevent the outside boat giving Artemis room to gybe (onto port) but then continuing to run them along (but not into) the wall providing they were able to remain on Starboard. Both boats would have been incredibly slow, but if they could for example keep Artemis there until they were below the layline it might have been a valid tactic.

 

[flaming]

But they are also quite clear in saying that the room has to be necessary to "avoid" the obstruction, (both in rule 20 and the CG32 supplement to it which in reality is only extending the rule to include gybing in addition to tacking). It doesn't say you have to give them room to sail away in the opposite direction!

So in the original example if there had been just the two boats in the race and they were match racing there would have been nothing in the rules to prevent the outside boat giving Artemis room to gybe (onto port) but then continuing to run them along (but not into) the wall providing they were able to remain on Starboard. Both boats would have been incredibly slow, but if they could for example keep Artemis there until they were below the layline it might have been a valid tactic.

if that was the intent then there would have been no need to rewrite the rule, as that is just rule 20 as it is.

That they re-wrote the rule, and clearly equated gybing and tacking, indicates that they clearly intended the gybing boat to sail it's normal angles away from the obstruction. That's exactly how the "room to tack" rule works. You don't have to sit head to wind on port, you get to bear away and sail away from the obstruction.

But remember, the boat only has room to complete it's gybe. What completing the gybe actually means isn't defined, but from the actions of the boats there (and note, that umpire rib didn't flag anyone) I'm guessing that redeploying your gennaker in good time counts as part of the gybing action.

Any further boats encountered and they'll either have to go behind, or gybe back.

But this is stadium racing, the rule changes are specifically designed to create passing opportunities and engagements between the boats.

 

[Neil_Y]

Thanks Flaming, those are the rules I was looking for. Makes sense really to keep the speed up and just a rule you have to work with in your tactics.

 

[Triassic]

if that was the intent then there would have been no need to rewrite the rule, as that is just rule 20 as it is.

That they re-wrote the rule, and clearly equated gybing and tacking, indicates that they clearly intended the gybing boat to sail it's normal angles away from the obstruction. That's exactly how the "room to tack" rule works. You don't have to sit head to wind on port, you get to bear away and sail away from the obstruction.

I'm afraid I still going to have to disagree with you, even though I acknowledge your reputation and knowledge on the subject.

Rule 20 as it is makes no reference to gybing, it talks only about giving room to tack. If you had two boats close hauled with an obstruction to leeward it is clearly designed to allow the lee boat an escape. If the boats are far enough apart for the lee boat to complete her tack then rule 10 (port/starboard) would come into play so rule 20 is clearly designed for boats that are in close quarters. Rule 20 works because neither boat is capable of sailing directly into the wind so in order to give room to tack the stand off vessel invariably has to tack themselves hence they both end up sailing away from the obstruction. Rule 20 does not apply to vessels going down wind because they can do just that, sail downwind, so rule 19 (19.2 b specifically) comes into play and requires the outside vessel to leave the inside one room to avoid the obstruction so providing they do so and they are either the lee boat or on starboard they can effectively run the inside boat all the way along the obstruction (but not into it).

I'm sure when they altered rule 20 to include room to gybe it was for exactly the reasons you give, they wanted to make it exciting and add an extra dimension to the tactics, however rule 10 and 19 still apply so had the outside vessel in the subject video turned away a little earlier they could have remained on starboard, allowed Artemis room to gybe (as required) but then because they were still on starboard and Artemis was now on port they wouldn't have had any rights on them and would not have been able to luff up, they would have been forced to turn down and run along the wall, which is what I originally said.......

Anyway, it's all exciting stuff and I'm loving ever second of it! (the racing that is, fascinating though this discussion is).

 

[flaming]

I'm afraid I still going to have to disagree with you, even though I acknowledge your reputation and knowledge on the subject.

Rule 20 as it is makes no reference to gybing, it talks only about giving room to tack. If you had two boats close hauled with an obstruction to leeward it is clearly designed to allow the lee boat an escape. If the boats are far enough apart for the lee boat to complete her tack then rule 10 (port/starboard) would come into play so rule 20 is clearly designed for boats that are in close quarters. Rule 20 works because neither boat is capable of sailing directly into the wind so in order to give room to tack the stand off vessel invariably has to tack themselves hence they both end up sailing away from the obstruction. Rule 20 does not apply to vessels going down wind because they can do just that, sail downwind, so rule 19 (19.2 b specifically) comes into play and requires the outside vessel to leave the inside one room to avoid the obstruction so providing they do so and they are either the lee boat or on starboard they can effectively run the inside boat all the way along the obstruction (but not into it).

I'm sure when they altered rule 20 to include room to gybe it was for exactly the reasons you give, they wanted to make it exciting and add an extra dimension to the tactics, however rule 10 and 19 still apply so had the outside vessel in the subject video turned away a little earlier they could have remained on starboard, allowed Artemis room to gybe (as required) but then because they were still on starboard and Artemis was now on port they wouldn't have had any rights on them and would not have been able to luff up, they would have been forced to turn down and run along the wall, which is what I originally said.......

Anyway, it's all exciting stuff and I'm loving ever second of it! (the racing that is, fascinating though this discussion is).

Sorry, that was a typo, I meant they wouldn't have had to rewrite rule 20, because that's exactly how rule 19 works, so a rule 20 re-write would have been unnecessary. Long day...

And yes I do agree that in theory the outside boat would be able to act in the way you describe, if it was further away AND the gybing boat was dozy. I can't actually imagine a situation where an outside boat could give the necessary room under the modified 20 to gybe without itself gybing whilst also remaining close enough to the inside boat to prevent a switched on crew from then avoiding them by passing ahead or astern.
Besides which, all I would do in the event that I did get caught out in that circumstance as the inside boat would be to immediately gybe back towards the obstruction (even if that's just throwing the main), then call again for room to gybe away from the obstruction once more. Which I think would suitably snooker your hypothetical outside boat rules wise with this modification to rule 20!

 

[Triassic]

I agree the only possible reason for holding another boat in there would be if they were one on one match racing (which they weren't) and by doing so you could deny the other boat from fetching a mark. As it is the change to rule 20 has made it very hard to pin anyone down for long and made for some incredible racing. I race multihulls and still find the way they move the apparent around quite unbelievable at times.

 

[Neil_Y]

I was just sitting there thinking this will be interesting (thinking normal rules which we'd just been racing to in F18 cats) and my immediate thoughts were he can't do that! but clearly the amended rules give you that option which benefits this type of racing. They came in next time very close to me! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF5MOlo5BXM