A question for sailing cat experts/fans please

[Robin]

Hi Robin, noticed this boat for sale in your neck of the woods. Seems to need a bit of work and don't have a clue what value these things fetch in either good or bad order so unsure whether it represents good value or not. Just posting the details in case its of interest. It does seem boats are generally cheaper in the States.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Prout-Snowg...ash=item3f76ef1efe:g:1eAAAOSwax5YrIi3&vxp=mtr

Thanks Brian,yes for sure. USA boats are without VAT but plus sales tax even used for locals and generally are cheaper, but that Ebay one sounds like a potential money pit/swamp. We are looking for something back in the UK too, albeit doing what you did and taking one home had occurred to me and even Theresa floated thre notion . However, at 72 and 70 we are looking for 'simple and affordable' and what the Doodles term pretty much in 'turn key' condition. My boatbuilding days are sadly past even for a moderate rebuilding project!. We are still realistically a few months off getting allthe ducks lined up and us on the plane home, but when we do will need something ready to go soon after touch down, not after a winter of hard work.

 

[howard easton]

We cruised a Prout Snowgoose with single leg across the Atlantic and back. We owned that boat for 12 years. With pracrise the single leg is very manoeuvrable. Far easier to enter a marina in strong winds than most monos.( i say this as a current monohull owner). Lifting the leg when sailing saves huge drag. It transforms the sailing. In my opinion it is a far better set up for the Prout than twin engines. I believe the twin engines is more akin to a motor sailer than a sailing boat. The single engine Prout kept light will sail well in a blow. We had a super tall rig at 45 ft and trick sails. She really did perform well. Most dont due to weight. Twin engines is a killer to performance. Keep her light and enjoy the sail. Fill her with heavy gear and you sail a pig. Its your choice

I had a Prout Quest with the single leg and I would echo every word of the above post.

The Silette drive leg is agricultural in nature but is really sturdy. It has two big advantages . Lifting it out of the water is good for at least half a knot under sail, sometimes a bit more. And if you ever do get anything wrapped round the prop you just lift the leg. As for manoeuvering I found that after a while I could near enough move the boat sideways by vectoring the leg. I never for one moment felt that handling the boat was compromised by the leg and if I were now to buy a new prout, that s the way I would go. I wouldnt want the double maintenance of mwo sail drives and two engines.
The Prout itself is a good solid boat. Sailing performance does suffer badly if its overloaded and IMO its a motor sailer to windward in a blow. It needs clean hulls to tack easily - I once came back from the channel islands having to jibe all the time until cleaning off the weed made the boat sail well again.
SWMBO loved our Prout and would have another tomorrow

 

[Muddy Boat]

I have a centrally mounted XL shaft outboard on my cat which works very well. However... if there is a decent swell / chop in the wrong direction, the outboard can come out of the water momentarily. Hasn't had a great effect so far, but possibly one pro for the inboards if it is likely to bother you.

Not sure if the same applies to the Silette leg, as it's a similar setup / positioning, but maybe worth enquiring.

 

[Scillypete]

I have a centrally mounted XL shaft outboard on my cat which works very well. However... if there is a decent swell / chop in the wrong direction, the outboard can come out of the water momentarily. Hasn't had a great effect so far, but possibly one pro for the inboards if it is likely to bother you.

Not sure if the same applies to the Silette leg, as it's a similar setup / positioning, but maybe worth enquiring.

Never had an issue with the prop coming out of the water on our Prout but not often under engine when there is a decent swell/chop as that usually means there's wind for sailing.

 

[bigwow]

Provided the gear/ throttle cables don't snap at the same time.

No they hadn't been off for "maintenance" and not re tightened:disgust:

 

[Mudisox]

Depends! NOt talking outboards BTW but inboard with lifting and steerable outdrive leg ( Sillette Sonic drive)
Based southern UK, cruising Channel and Western ( Atlantic ) France maybe to N Spain, living on board full time, maybe drying out for scrub offs/bottom jobs etc and being mobile not classed as permanent gypsy liveaboards if we get an annual marina berth or winter one.

Your projected use is similar to me. Two engines 12.5 hp. Speed is not the issue but reliability and options are. Things do go wrong and with twin systems it is not the end of the world.
As for manoeuvrability- I can almost make the boat dance. Especially if I can get one line attached on somewhere.

 

[geem]

I have a centrally mounted XL shaft outboard on my cat which works very well. However... if there is a decent swell / chop in the wrong direction, the outboard can come out of the water momentarily. Hasn't had a great effect so far, but possibly one pro for the inboards if it is likely to bother you.

Not sure if the same applies to the Silette leg, as it's a similar setup / positioning, but maybe worth enquiring.

I can confirm the driveleg never comes out of the water having done about 30,000 miles in ours. The leg is mounted well forward, not on the stern so it doesnt have a tendancy to lift out

 

[geem]

I had a Prout Quest with the single leg and I would echo every word of the above post.

The Silette drive leg is agricultural in nature but is really sturdy. It has two big advantages . Lifting it out of the water is good for at least half a knot under sail, sometimes a bit more. And if you ever do get anything wrapped round the prop you just lift the leg. As for manoeuvering I found that after a while I could near enough move the boat sideways by vectoring the leg. I never for one moment felt that handling the boat was compromised by the leg and if I were now to buy a new prout, that s the way I would go. I wouldnt want the double maintenance of mwo sail drives and two engines.
The Prout itself is a good solid boat. Sailing performance does suffer badly if its overloaded and IMO its a motor sailer to windward in a blow. It needs clean hulls to tack easily - I once came back from the channel islands having to jibe all the time until cleaning off the weed made the boat sail well again.
SWMBO loved our Prout and would have another tomorrow

In my opinion the Quest is a motorsailer to windward as well. The snowgoose however is certainly not. Ours had a rig 8ft taller than standard. We had laminate sails and she would easily out perform any twin keel cruiser of a similar size to windward. She would point higher and sail faster. We did, however, keep her light. We once sailed from Antigua to Azores with wind on the nose all the way except one day. On that trip the slamming of the solid bridge deck was the biggest issue. It just made the whole boat shake when we slammed. It didnt cause the boat a problem just our nerves.....

 

[Robin]

My thanks to all for informative comments nowfilling my brain/databox to capacity!

One final question just occurred to me. How does an autopilot cope with the sonic drive leg options where it might have to turn both the leg and the rudders when motoring/motorsailing? In one video that I watched the wheel fell off (no explanation as to why) on a delivery from the Azores to UK and they hand steered with a mole grip clamped on in it's place, but the unit was a Ray Marine wheel drive or seemed like it to me and known to be fragile. .

 

[fergie_mac66]

We lockoutboard into center and disconnect rudder's from it on auto pilot, saves wear and tear and fuel .I would think the sonic would be the same.
Just have to remember to reconnect when entering a marina nothing worse than turning the wheel and a slow turn at the wrong moment.

 

[geem]

My thanks to all for informative comments nowfilling my brain/databox to capacity!

One final question just occurred to me. How does an autopilot cope with the sonic drive leg options where it might have to turn both the leg and the rudders when motoring/motorsailing? In one video that I watched the wheel fell off (no explanation as to why) on a delivery from the Azores to UK and they hand steered with a mole grip clamped on in it's place, but the unit was a Ray Marine wheel drive or seemed like it to me and known to be fragile. .

The sonic drive leg is not connected to the rudders. The rudders and drive leg turn independantly. The arm for turning the drive leg is well below the wheel and it is kicked over from side to side by your foot. Works very well. It means you can coast up to a pontoon in neutral steering on the wheel with the drive leg already kicked over such that when you give it a burst of reverse it pulls the stern in to the pontoon. Pretty nifty trick that you just cant do in a monohull unless you have tons of prop walk and that only works one one side of the boat.
We had a hydraulic steering on our Prout 37 that worked very well. Took us across the Atlantic and back with no problems and could steer in any weather we could throw at it

 

[Robin]

The sonic drive leg is not connected to the rudders. The rudders and drive leg turn independantly. The arm for turning the drive leg is well below the wheel and it is kicked over from side to side by your foot. Works very well. It means you can coast up to a pontoon in neutral steering on the wheel with the drive leg already kicked over such that when you give it a burst of reverse it pulls the stern in to the pontoon. Pretty nifty trick that you just cant do in a monohull unless you have tons of prop walk and that only works one one side of the boat.
We had a hydraulic steering on our Prout 37 that worked very well. Took us across the Atlantic and back with no problems and could steer in any weather we could throw at it

Thanks , I was imagining the two routinely operating in conjunction unless the drive was locked in straight ahead. In all my searches nowhere was it ever explained how it operates in practice, even on the Gemini website where they use a similar set up and praise the maneuverability options.

 

[[3889]]

BTW have you looked at Catalacs. Bit staid but robust and good accommodation. Built by local lads in Christchurch as a bonus!

Or a Gemini 105Mc? 14' beam fits the French canals and it will even stay upright if you manage the centreboards properly.

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums...and-Race-(-amp-Gemini-capsize)-*videos-added*

 

[Scillypete]

My thanks to all for informative comments nowfilling my brain/databox to capacity!

One final question just occurred to me. How does an autopilot cope with the sonic drive leg options where it might have to turn both the leg and the rudders when motoring/motorsailing? In one video that I watched the wheel fell off (no explanation as to why) on a delivery from the Azores to UK and they hand steered with a mole grip clamped on in it's place, but the unit was a Ray Marine wheel drive or seemed like it to me and known to be fragile. .

I can give you the low down on that incident as it was my boat being brought back from the Azores by delivery crew. The Raymarine unit packed up on the way south from Portugal to Madeira where it was replaced with a new unit. The new unit, still under warranty packed up again (drive motor issues both times) a few days out from the Azores, the crew were hand steering after that when the wheel came off. They used the mole grips as the delivery skipper and crew could not work out how to get the hub off the wheel to get at the nut to reattach the wheel, the skipper was convinced it was a screw on hub and had seized when in fact it was a pop on/off and all that was needed was a twist with a screwdriver in the join to make it come off, which he successfully did when they made landfall in Kinsale and got in touch. All good in the end.

As has been said the sonic leg steering is separate to the rudders on Prouts.

Raymarine replaced the under warranty unit and so far that one has been working fine, must admit I would like to find a better self steering system for the longer passages and certainly one that is more reliable as there is nothing worse than being short handed on a long passage and then it packs up.

 

[Garry & June 'Friendship']

We cruised a Prout Snowgoose with single leg across the Atlantic and back. We owned that boat for 12 years. With pracrise the single leg is very manoeuvrable. Far easier to enter a marina in strong winds than most monos.( i say this as a current monohull owner). Lifting the leg when sailing saves huge drag. It transforms the sailing. In my opinion it is a far better set up for the Prout than twin engines. I believe the twin engines is more akin to a motor sailer than a sailing boat. The single engine Prout kept light will sail well in a blow. We had a super tall rig at 45 ft and trick sails. She really did perform well. Most dont due to weight. Twin engines is a killer to performance. Keep her light and enjoy the sail. Fill her with heavy gear and you sail a pig. Its your choice

Wow if only you had told me this earlier all this money I have spent on a new mainsail and a possible re-rigging next year I could have saved now I know I own a motor sailer I may as well not bother ..... !!

 

[geem]

Wow if only you had told me this earlier all this money I have spent on a new mainsail and a possible re-rigging next year I could have saved now I know I own a motor sailer I may as well not bother ..... !!

Weight is a killer to performance on the Prout Snowgoose. They are simple construction of polyester resin and glass with substantial layup. No effort was made to build them light which is likely why there are still so many around. The hull is strong but heavy. We kept ours as light as possible. That is the only way you can squeeze performance from them. We never met any Prout Snowgoose owner that kept them as light as us. Most we came across sailed poorly particularly the twin engine version. The sterns of the Prouts have very little volume so weight in the ends is not a great idea. We could notice the performance difference between full fuel tanks and water tanks when near empty. We saved about 250kg by removing all loose ply under bunks, replacing the table, replacing doors with foam core composite. We only ever sailed with one water tank full when going any distance. Crossing the Atlantic we used a tiny watermaker and made 25 litres per day but kept one water tank full as an emergency back up. If you do all this thry will sail quite well but it is at a price of having minimal kit onboard. Ignore this and you are a motorsailer. A good measure of how loaded you are is if the nacelle is in the water at anchor you are too heavy. Ours was not. Most Prouts we see have the nacelle antifouled as it was permanently in the water

 

[Robin]

I can give you the low down on that incident as it was my boat being brought back from the Azores by delivery crew. The Raymarine unit packed up on the way south from Portugal to Madeira where it was replaced with a new unit. The new unit, still under warranty packed up again (drive motor issues both times) a few days out from the Azores, the crew were hand steering after that when the wheel came off. They used the mole grips as the delivery skipper and crew could not work out how to get the hub off the wheel to get at the nut to reattach the wheel, the skipper was convinced it was a screw on hub and had seized when in fact it was a pop on/off and all that was needed was a twist with a screwdriver in the join to make it come off, which he successfully did when they made landfall in Kinsale and got in touch. All good in the end.

As has been said the sonic leg steering is separate to the rudders on Prouts.

Raymarine replaced the under warranty unit and so far that one has been working fine, must admit I would like to find a better self steering system for the longer passages and certainly one that is more reliable as there is nothing worse than being short handed on a long passage and then it packs up.

Been there and have several wheel pilot tee shirts of old though busted drives/belts in my case. I HAD an idea that might have been your cat ScillyPete, thanks for putting the last bit of the jigsaw in place!

THe Gemini 105MCs use a single leg drive too but nowhere in their blurbs, new or used is it explained in detail, even in a promotional video showing one 'docking in a tight spot' and in the video of one on a transat delivery to UK there was always someone seen steering.


THe gemini MCs look good and I like the master nookie cabin with sea view ahead feature too! Not so sure however about the centreboards unless they 'kick up' on 'cockups', again nowhere do they say although one used blurb says the rudders do kick up if grounded. Basic questions ignored by simple salesmen or brokers or in that case sales lady come broker (USA).There is a used 105MC cat in Eastbourne but now for sale privately, which makes contact and information gathering harder from overseas with time differences, but in any case that particular one is too soon for us to consider seriously. I would prefer to buy through a broker anyway.

 

[[3889]]

Been there and have several wheel pilot tee shirts of old though busted drives/belts in my case. I HAD an idea that might have been your cat ScillyPete, thanks for putting the last bit of the jigsaw in place!

THe Gemini 105MCs use a single leg drive too but nowhere in their blurbs, new or used is it explained in detail, even in a promotional video showing one 'docking in a tight spot' and in the video of one on a transat delivery to UK there was always someone seen steering.


THe gemini MCs look good and I like the master nookie cabin with sea view ahead feature too! Not so sure however about the centreboards unless they 'kick up' on 'cockups', again nowhere do they say although one used blurb says the rudders do kick up if grounded. Basic questions ignored by simple salesmen or brokers or in that case sales lady come broker (USA).There is a used 105MC cat in Eastbourne but now for sale privately, which makes contact and information gathering harder from overseas with time differences, but in any case that particular one is too soon for us to consider seriously. I would prefer to buy through a broker anyway.

I'd arranged to view the RTIR Gemini immediately prior to its mishap, it was for sale at the time. I believe the only one to have done a Transat was sailed by the designer, mostly to prove a point. Certainly not a boat I would choose for ocean crossings, and would have some concern about Biscay, but a comfortable coastal, X-channel option with a well thought out interior and reasonable sailing performance. I think there's one for sale in Plymouth, as well, though they're fairly thin on the ground in Europe.

 

[Robin]

I'd arranged to view the RTIR Gemini immediately prior to its mishap, it was for sale at the time. I believe the only one to have done a Transat was sailed by the designer, mostly to prove a point. Certainly not a boat I would choose for ocean crossings, and would have some concern about Biscay, but a comfortable coastal, X-channel option with a well thought out interior and reasonable sailing performance. I think there's one for sale in Plymouth, as well, though they're fairly thin on the ground in Europe.

The cat in Sussex is called Meerkat of cowes, is that the RTIR one? tippy up goes down badly with SWMBO, even if it was operator error, we like twat proof! the transat Gemini video that I watched was indeed one sailed by the designer and his son. There is Snowgoose for sale in Spain that has done the canals transit from the Med and then returned by the outside route but not sure if that is the 15ft beam or the 16ft wide 'elite' version. Not a deal breaker either way for us but might prefer the wider one if we are going to be charged a premium rate anyway for berthing.

 

[crocks]

The old geese sail better than the new geese, the Elite has big square protrusions sticking out underneath at the stern to accommodate the larger births in the aft cabins which are still cosy doubles at best. One diesel donkey and Sillette leg are the way to go on the Snowgoose. As has already been mentioned, keep them light and enjoy the sailing. Almost an idiot proof boat, look out for mast compression, de laminating water tanks and leaking windows.