A petition to the government

[rtchina]

I have finally bitten the bullet and created an online petition regarding the residence requirement for Part 3 registration, which I think should be the same as Part 1, ie that you can have a UK resident representative rather than the "must be resident" requirement.
The petition can be found at this address

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/fair-treatment-uk-yachtsmen.html

I really don't like "blind eye" workarounds and think that this request is reasonable and cost free, so should be acted upon. I will take it up with my MP if there is any support. Please let any friends and associates know about it, thanks.
I am also posting this on the other forums in an attempt to get good coverage

 

[Ariadne]

That'll stop all the Spanish, Italian, Greek owned/based never even been to the UK, nationals from registering in the UK to save on taxes and surveys then.

UK registry should mean, UK national, UK based.

 

[rtchina]

Actually no. The foreigners sailing under the Red Ensign do so because their yachts are owned by a UK company. This is a simple petition designed to help UK citizens who sail abroad. Why do you have to make it so bloody complicated?

 

[Ariadne]

I'm not making it complicated, it's just the way I see it.

I re-registered my P1 boat in March while in Gran Canaria no problem - one of the reasons for being P1 registered, along with proof of purchase (I have a piece of paper stamped by the gov' that states I own my boat), sorry mate you get what you pay for. If you want the benefits of P1 registry then get P1 not P3, simple really.

I know plenty of people who have UK flagged vessels under P3, who have never been to the UK let alone have a UK registered business interest. Just a mate who knows a mate who lives in the UK and is willing let them use the address.

I'm being bloody minded about this as its how I feel about it.

 

[GrahamM376]

Actually no. The foreigners sailing under the Red Ensign do so because their yachts are owned by a UK company. This is a simple petition designed to help UK citizens who sail abroad. Why do you have to make it so bloody complicated?

Why do you have to try to legalise foreign nationals using the UK registry to save having to obtain qualifications and have surveys/meet legislation in their own country. Most are not company owned but private vessels. I suppose the next idea will be to give them a house and benefit in the port of registry?

Like most UK nationals, we have no problem supplying a UK address to satisfy bureaucracy and personally, I would like to see those using the UK flag for convernience, stopped from so doing.

 

[rivonia]

Why do you have to try to legalise foreign nationals using the UK registry to save having to obtain qualifications and have surveys/meet legislation in their own country. Most are not company owned but private vessels. I suppose the next idea will be to give them a house and benefit in the port of registry?

Like most UK nationals, we have no problem supplying a UK address to satisfy bureaucracy and personally, I would like to see those using the UK flag for convernience, stopped from so doing.

HEAR HEAR
So would I

Peter

 

[Tranona]

Why do you have to try to legalise foreign nationals using the UK registry to save having to obtain qualifications and have surveys/meet legislation in their own country. Most are not company owned but private vessels. I suppose the next idea will be to give them a house and benefit in the port of registry?

Like most UK nationals, we have no problem supplying a UK address to satisfy bureaucracy and personally, I would like to see those using the UK flag for convernience, stopped from so doing.

There is nothing illegal about non nationals or non residents registering on the Part 1 register, and never has been, although the process can be expensive and cumbersome.

The issue is about the eligibility criteria for Part 3 which is residence rather than nationality based.

 

[chinita]

I am afraid that, under the current terms of your petition, I could not support it.

I believe that ownership of either Part I or Part III registered vessels should be restricted to those of UK Nationality.

If that were the case it would stop Spanish from flying the Red Ensign as a flag of convenience and avoiding their strict matriculation and qualification requirements.

Having achieved that, I do not believe residency should be an issue.

 

[rtchina]

I am afraid that, under the current terms of your petition, I could not support it.

I believe that ownership of either Part I or Part III registered vessels should be restricted to those of UK Nationality.

If that were the case it would stop Spanish from flying the Red Ensign as a flag of convenience and avoiding their strict matriculation and qualification requirements.

Having achieved that, I do not believe residency should be an issue.

Exactly, you have to be a UK national to get part III registration, but you also have to be resident, which I think is wrong.

 

[BrianH]

Exactly, you have to be a UK national to get part III registration, but you also have to be resident, which I think is wrong.

It is NOT necessary "to be a UK national" to register with SSR (Part III) as this extract from the MCA guidance notes on eligibility shows:

(a)British Citizens
(b)Persons who are nationals of a European Union or Economic Area country other than the United Kingdom and are established* in the UK
(c)British Dependant Territories citizens; British Overseas citizens; persons who under the British Nationality Act 1991 and are British subjects; persons who under the Hong Kong (British Nationality) Order are British Nationals Overseas, and
(d)Commonwealth citizens not falling within those paragraphs.​

– providing that they “are ordinarily resident in the UK”.

This is an extract from one (here) of many, many postings on the subject.

 

[Tranona]

Exactly, you have to be a UK national to get part III registration, but you also have to be resident, which I think is wrong.

No you don't. Residency is the only requirement. That is at the heart of the problem. At the time it was introduced the main objective was to provide a piece of paper that would satisfy primarily the French concern about unregistered yachts visiting from UK. There was an assumption that any "serious" ocean traveller would have his boat on Part 1. Since then of course there has been significant growth in ex patriate UK nationals owning yachts and keeping them in different parts of the world but still wanting to be registered as UK yachts (for convenience?). Part 1 is still open to them as is registration in the Channel Islands - although that is not trouble free, particularly in the EU.

 

[miyagimoon]

I'm not making it complicated, it's just the way I see it.

I re-registered my P1 boat in March while in Gran Canaria no problem - one of the reasons for being P1 registered, along with proof of purchase (I have a piece of paper stamped by the gov' that states I own my boat), sorry mate you get what you pay for.



Sorry Ariadne, if you read the "Important Information" on the back of your Part 1 Certificate it states "A Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership"

 

[Ariadne]

The simple answer to it all is to put everybody on Part 1.

No SSR at all and tighten up the UK register so only UK Nationals or people regually domaciled in the UK (e.g. tax payers, NI contribution payers, social scroungers, etc) can register thier boats here. No more johny foreigner or ex-pats on Part3 permanently away from the UK.

As I said earlier, if you want the benifits of Part 1 - go and get Part 1 registered!

 

[Tranona]

The simple answer to it all is to put everybody on Part 1.

No SSR at all and tighten up the UK register so only UK Nationals or people regually domaciled in the UK (e.g. tax payers, NI contribution payers, social scroungers, etc) can register thier boats here. No more johny foreigner or ex-pats on Part3 permanently away from the UK.

As I said earlier, if you want the benifits of Part 1 - go and get Part 1 registered!

Don't follow your confused thinking. Part 3 only signifies that the boat is subject to UK regulations - ie none on things like equipment and crewing. There are no other "benefits" conferred by the UK government - only those accorded the boat by the authorities when visiting another country.

There are additional benefits of Part 1 are the recording of ownership (but not beneficial title - this is your Bill of Sale) and the ability to register charges against the boat.

Registration is only loosely connected with nationality of owners. It is about determining what regulations govern the ship. Many foreign owned ships are on the British register just as many British owned ships are on other registers. The British owned Fast Cats (Condor) that run between UK, the Channel Islands and France are registered in Singapore. The predecessor conventional ferries were registerd in the Bahamas.

It might be nice to think that the Red Duster is a patriotic British emblem - but in this context it ceased to be many moons ago.

 

[GrahamM376]

There are significant benefits to foreigners who use Part III by the back door - as there is no need for UK Nationality, just residency, which can be fiddled. Not having to matriculate the yacht and sit Spanish Sailing Examinations are just two.

Plus avoidance of wealth tax in some countries.

 

[Tranona]

There are significant benefits to foreigners who use Part III by the back door - as there is no need for UK Nationality, just residency, which can be fiddled. Not having to matriculate the yacht and sit Spanish Sailing Examinations are just two.

Yes, I know about that, but in that case the person is probably breaking the national law and it is up to the state, say Spain for example to enforce its own laws.

Just to re-inforce the point there has never been any nationality requirement to register a boat on the UK register. The major difference between the two registers on eligibility is that Part 1 does not require residency.

 

[GrahamM376]

Just to re-inforce the point there has never been any nationality requirement to register a boat on the UK register.

I'm not bothered about Part 1 as the discussion originated about Part 3, for which there certainly is a nationality requirement. Only citizens of certain counties/areas are permitted to register and they must meet the "established" rules.

Many foreigners flying the UK ensign blatantly do not meet the rules for establishment and, as they have no income in the UK can't claim residence via the tax man either. OK, I admit there are a few Brits who also bend the rules but most have paid their taxes for years and were long term permanent residents.

3. Who may register a small ship?
A small ship may be registered if it is owned by one or more of the following persons who are ordinarily resident in the UK:
(a) British Citizens
(b) Persons who are nationals of a European Union or Economic Area country other than the United Kingdom and are established* in the UK
(c) British Dependant Territories citizens; British Overseas citizens; persons who under the British Nationality Act 1991 and are British subjects; persons who under the Hong Kong (British Nationality) Order are British Nationals Overseas, and
(d) Commonwealth citizens not falling within those paragraphs.

* Established – It is not sufficient to live in the UK to be ‘established’ in accordance with Articles 48 and 52 of the EU Treaty. To be ‘established’ a person must make an economic contribution to the UK by being the proprietor of a business, being employed, or having very recently retired from such employment, ie within the last 6 months. If you have any doubts about your ‘establishment’ you should consult the Registry.

4. What does ‘ordinarily resident’ mean?
For the purposes of registering a ship it means living and sleeping in the UK for a significant part of the year. A person may be considered to be ordinarily resident in the country in which they live for a period of, or periods which collectively amount to 185 days or more in a twelve month period. If you are resident in the UK for tax purposes, you will generally be regarded as resident for the purpose of registration.

 

[Ariadne]

I'm not making it complicated, it's just the way I see it.

I re-registered my P1 boat in March while in Gran Canaria no problem - one of the reasons for being P1 registered, along with proof of purchase (I have a piece of paper stamped by the gov' that states I own my boat), sorry mate you get what you pay for.



Sorry Ariadne, if you read the "Important Information" on the back of your Part 1 Certificate it states "A Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership"

I never it was, I said the Bill of Sale was. Your Bill of Sale (which you need to provide to get P1) is your proof of ownership and ties in with the C of R with No. of owners and No. of 64ths held.

 

[Tranona]

Meanwhile, several 'Spanish' owned gin palaces were bobbing away in the marina wearing the Red Ensign acquired through this ridiculous loop hole.

How do you know they are not legitimately on Part 1?

In your other example, "registration" is sort of irrelevant. Your friends have chosen to reside in Spain so are subject to Spanish law which requires them register their boat in Spain.

The difficulty with Spain in particular is that the laws exist but are variably applied.

As you know, in the UK there is no requirement to register a yacht. SSR is there purely to aid yachtsmen visiting other countries. In addition many countries permit UK owned vessels to stay in their country without complying with any of their local registration requirements, provided in many cases like Spain the owner is non-resident. Strictly speaking one interpretation of the UN convention would suggest that this concession should only apply yachts on passage through the territory, not to those permanently based there.

However different States in the EU have adopted different policies, generally allowing EU owned yachts free movement. As you are no doubt aware Spain treats yachts in the same way as cars - and cars are treated no differently in UK. You can use a car short term, but if you take up residence you have to register it in the UK paying duty, VAT and getting type approval.

The more you dig into the ins andout of crossborder use and ownership of yachts, the more you realise that the simplistic view (UK registration for UK citizens) does not solve problems - if anything it would make matters worse in some respects.

At one level the UN convention set a useful framework - but only in respect of navigation of the seas. It does not attempt to deal with all the other issues as they are political and individual states have freedom to set their own rules on ownership, taxation and registration requirements.

 

[Tranona]

Oh, BTW, one of those with the Red Ensign and an SSR was a Mariniero employed by the Marina - A Belgian chap.

There is little benefit to him registering in UK as Belgian registration is just as easy as the SSR!

Not doubting that non-residents do use the SSR, but equally unless you know the full background of ownership it is all too easy to make an assumption - which may be wrong.

As I tried to explain earlier, it is up to the State to enforce its own laws, but the reality is that they have much more important things to worry about and there is little political or financial gain for them. Of course, particularly in Spain where there is considerable local autonomy, enfocement will vary from place to place.