A Mayday, really?

jonjo5 said:
the blocker to progress is the entrenched belief at UK CG that a Mayday cannot be challenged and only the skipper can retract it.
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Wrong.

I didn't say it couldn't be challenged, it can be (and I frequently have with success). However, you still cannot override the skipper if he insists it is a mayday.

That is not a UK interpretation, it is international, backed up both by ITU and IMO through the IAMSAR manual.

A mayday does not actually mean I have to task an asset if I know the circumstances - there have been jobs when I've simply run the mayday relay and a commercial vessel has responded, and towed the casualty under a fee agreement.

It's like every coordination job - you task (or don't task) assets according to the incident and on scene conditions, not according to what the skipper demands.
 
Due to our position we could only hear the CG responses, whilst I was trying to fix a duff alternator drive on my stbd engine.

It was not at all clear that this was a sail boat so we had assumed it was a single engine motor boat.

Definitely not a Mayday IMHO, but hey. Agree that this is what generates unnecessary rules and regulations.
 
chanelyacht said:
You seem to assume no asset would be tasked to your assistance in the hour following your pan call.

A mayday in the situation you describe is totally unjustified - it is a pan call, following which the MRCC would have more than enough time to either find you a nearby vessel to tow you, or task an appropriate asset.

Your "mayday" call could result in the diversion of an asset already going to another job, or unnecessary diversion of other craft in the vacinity.

The mayday definition is quite clear internationally - "grave and imminent danger to life or vessel".
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Please justify "more than enough time" in no emergency situation? Love your sig - tells me all I need to know lol
 
I have been mulling over my alledged transgression of the radio telegraphy act 2005, have I done the wrong thing?

My OP is dated after the RNLI made a public post quoting more specific details about the Mayday incident than I posted here. No recording or verbatim RT dialogue has been posted here.

I feel there is a more fundamental constitutional right to publically debate the actions of a branch of Government without fear of State reprisal which trumps the radio telegraphy usage laws. How can the actions of the CG be debated without citing examples, hmm? I can also see that the CG wish to protect users in distress so that they feel thay can screw up on the airwaves and not face future ridicule.

Its a tricky one, next time I will wait a few days and turn specifics into a generic example, sorry whoever you were off Ventnor.
 
I feel many here are missing the most profound issue that underpins this thread.

Although some here need to be reminded that RNLB callouts are not a free unlimited resource when volunteer time is taken into account, the persuit of this issue diverts the debate from the core issue. I will illustrate my point in a bizzare way that will have Traronabumptykay frothing at the mouth.

I few years ago my SW Brittany cruise nearly ended in disaster as I was walking along the quayside in Concarneau when I came within inches of falling down a steep flight of granit steps built into the harbour wall. It would have been a bone crunching experience and a likely hospital visit. I chastized myself for days over this error, later I realized the blame lay with the British State. We are so cosseted as a people we have lost a sense of self preservation. The French do not feel compelled to surround this danger with ugly guardrails.

A good example is that awful pedestrian brige over the Sutton Harbour lock in Plymouth. This modern bridge could have offered architectural enrichment and a thrilling experience for children walking across. Instead what to we got in Britain, this country living under a tyranny of health & safety committes, we got a caged walkway that looks as if it has been lifted out of the suicide-watch wing of HMP Broadmoor.

This national obsession with eliminating risk is ultimately arresting our development, causing mental atrophy at a national level and ultimately turning us into an uncompetative nation of underdeveloped incapable loosers.
 
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jonjo5 said:
I feel many here are missing the most profound issue that underpins this thread.

Although some here need to be reminded that RNLB callouts are not a free unlimited resource when volunteer time is taken into account, the persuit of this issue diverts the debate from the core issue. I will illustrate my point in a bizzare way that will have Traronabumptykay frothing at the mouth.

I few years ago my SW Brittany cruise nearly ended in disaster as I was walking along the quayside in Concarneau when I came within inches of falling down a steep flight of granit steps built into the harbour wall. It would have been a bone crunching experience and a likely hospital visit. I chastized myself for days over this error, later I realized the blame lay with the British State. We are so cosseted as a people we have lost a sense of self preservation. The French do not feel compelled to surround this danger with ugly guardrails.

A good example is that awful pedestrian brige over the Sutton Harbour lock in Plymouth. This modern bridge could have offered architectural enrichtment and a thrilling experience for children walking across. Instead what to we got in Britain, this country living under a tyrrany of health & safety committes, we got a caged walkway that looks as if it has been lifted out of the suicide-watch wing of HMP Broadmore.

This national obsession with eliminating risk is ultimately arresting our development, causing mental atrophe at a national level and ultimately turning us into an uncompetative nation of underdeveloped incapable loosers.
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And in the meantime spelling lost the apocalyptic struggle with commonsense
 
I had a bad start to last weekend. Firstly, whilst unloading the groceries from the trolley to the deck I watched as my mobile phone went plop and started descending to the depths. Not wishing to create an emergency at home (wife not being able to contact me - she would be suspicious) and since the phone was in a Lifeproof case I donned the dry suit and mask. Lowered the anchor where I had dropped the phone and pulled myself down on the anchor chain to recover the phone.
Next, sailed overnight to Weymouth. Upon arrival at the harbour attempted to start the engine but whilst it would start it would immediately die. Anchored. 5 minutes later problem sorted. Wire had come of the fuel lift pump.
Now it did occur to me that I had not renewed my Seastart subscription but at no point did it occur to me to involve any outside agencies.
 
TonyBuckley said:
So if engine failed at the Owers then yes I would try to sail with the southerly, but my boat is heavy and I know no progress would be made. There were no boats - whole trip was surprisingly quiet.

It was a warm day so I do not understand the hypothermia comment?

Any mayday needs time to respond, hence me saying projecting ahead. A Pan Pan would be a lovely conversation saying hello "tell us how you are doing", yet I would know I would be in possible trouble an hour later - too late for a Mayday response. I would have no problem declaring a mayday at that point, but I would also have no problem paying for a rescue.

The only other risk I had was the Portsmouth submerged barrier, after the Owers it was open water for a long way with much more than an hour of tolerance.
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Well - you'd make some progress, but maybe not in the direction against the tide .. Of course, if you felt you were likely to drift into shallows that would be an early call for assistance - it's easier to recover a boat afloat!
Hypothermia was a thought as it was late in the day when you posted - and with little wind it may take quite some time to make progress - either way - so I would consider the possibility of getting cold. That you considered it not possible questions your view of a mayday call even further - a crew with hypothermia could easily be a mayday. (I've had it - only mildly - it wasn't nice)


At the owers you're most likely less than 10nm from selsey lifeboat. Probably more like 5 or 6 - less if you're in trouble - they run at 17.5knots - so less than 30mins to get to you ....

Anchors will slow down a drift even if they don't hold

Sorry - nothing I can see makes it a mayday ...
 
jonjo5 said:
I feel many here are missing the most profound issue that underpins this thread.

Although some here need to be reminded that RNLB callouts are not a free unlimited resource when volunteer time is taken into account, the persuit of this issue diverts the debate from the core issue. I will illustrate my point in a bizzare way that will have Traronabumptykay frothing at the mouth.

I few years ago my SW Brittany cruise nearly ended in disaster as I was walking along the quayside in Concarneau when I came within inches of falling down a steep flight of granit steps built into the harbour wall. It would have been a bone crunching experience and a likely hospital visit. I chastized myself for days over this error, later I realized the blame lay with the British State. We are so cosseted as a people we have lost a sense of self preservation. The French do not feel compelled to surround this danger with ugly guardrails.

A good example is that awful pedestrian brige over the Sutton Harbour lock in Plymouth. This modern bridge could have offered architectural enrichtment and a thrilling experience for children walking across. Instead what to we got in Britain, this country living under a tyrrany of health & safety committes, we got a caged walkway that looks as if it has been lifted out of the suicide-watch wing of HMP Broadmore.

This national obsession with eliminating risk is ultimately arresting our development, causing mental atrophe at a national level and ultimately turning us into an uncompetative nation of underdeveloped incapable loosers.
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Well it is Plymouth.;)
 
jonjo5 said:
Other countries are so concerned about fivolous Mayday requests they view these as a criminal activity.
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That, like other conclusions of yours, is misleading.

You apply the word "frivolous" to this Mayday with not the slightest justification for doing so. You were not onboard the vessel affected, the RNLI have given no information that suggests the Mayday was unwarranted at the moment it was made and by the skipper who made it; and rely on gossip and hearsay to judge in hindsight that it should really have been a Pan Pan or just a heads up to the CG.

You also state that "frivolous" Maydays in other countries are viewed as criminal activity. That is not so. A different question altogether is the handling of deliberately malicious calls, or calls made "for the fun of it". These are treated appropriately, of course, at least in France and Spain. They are also most likely handled in an appropriate manner in the UK.

I know of no country that treats as a criminal act a Mayday call that, with hindsight, more experience, or a more level head, should have been a Pan Pan or a more routine call to the competent authority.

The impression I have of your sequence of interventions in this thread is that you favour the use of private enterprise for pleasure boat call outs. If that is so, please make this clear, and state your reasons, so that we all may debate the pros and cons of your proposal, and maybe hear some experiences from forumites that have used the US system where it seems most "rescue" services are private up to a point where the call is definitely a Mayday or Pan Pan.

Plomong
 
pmagowan said:
If, however, someone gets in trouble at sea there is a very good argument for having minimal barriers to them seeking assistance because the problem can deteriorate quickly with risk to life. The RNLI have always taken this view. Many people are very resistant to calling a mayday even if it is justified and some would leave things too late, especially if they thought there might be repercussions. It is a psychological thing. Perhaps the RNLI are happy to put up with the over-anxious few in the knowledge that they will appear open and happy to help to those that may feel a psychological barrier to calling them when in need.

Also, why charge when you are making plenty of money through good will. Charging may put people's noses out of joint and erode some of that good will. I have never needed them myself but have been in situations where, if something went wrong, I would be very glad of seeing the big orange boat appearing. So far, everything that has gone wrong on my boat I have been able to fix myself, or at least get to safety under my own steam (or lack of steam).
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Agree, if the RNLI started charging would their revenue actually fall as people believe they are now getting some of their own revenue through charging. The RNLI has plenty of money and volunteers to deal with the current demand and I can find no evidence it is getting any worse as regards maydays generally.
Yes you have the occasional incidents where you may wonder what is going on , the 'Captain calamity' incidents springs to mind, but for the large majority the current set up of the RNLI works well, long may it continue.
 
TonyBuckley said:
Please justify "more than enough time" in no emergency situation? Love your sig - tells me all I need to know lol
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The reference was the comment about a pan call being "a nice chat" and knowing that it would become a mayday in an hour. A pan call is not "a chat", and assets would be tasked, if needed, just as quickly as they would be to a mayday an hour later.

Not sure what your comment re signature means, don't think we're debating Europe on this thread :)
 
Maybe there is confusion in some minds re the definition of "imminent". "Within 6 hours" is the meteorological definition but personally I wouldn't apply the same meaning when defining a time-scale for "grave and imminent danger".
Maybe if the RNLI adopted the USCG model of saving the people and sinking the boat attitudes might change.
 
Plomong said:
The impression I have of your sequence of interventions in this thread is that you favour the use of private enterprise for pleasure boat call outs. If that is so, please make this clear, and state your reasons, so that we all may debate the pros and cons of your proposal, and maybe hear some experiences from forumites that have used the US system where it seems most "rescue" services are private up to a point where the call is definitely a Mayday or Pan Pan.

Plomong
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We don't find commercial boats getting tugs home from the RNLI all the time do we ... fishermen get tugged home by mates - on the understanding that it could be reversed next time - RNLI seems to be the last resort for them - but for many leisure sailors it seems to be the first port of call ..
Not that I think there's anything wrong in getting a tow home from the RNLI - if needs be - but there really should be the thought that if they're tasked to you, then they're not immeadiately available to be tasked to someone in more need.

I like that the RNLI don't charge for a towing operation but we (leisure sailors) should take care not to abuse that - and where possible we should return/payforward the favour by offering assistance to other leisure sailors who need it - I'd hope that any other leisure vessel in Ventor would've offered to assist that sailing yacht.

My beef isn't so much the tow, it's the mayday call in the first place....
The same thought and care needs to be taken when placing a mayday call as should be for placing a 999 call - you wouldn't (I hope) call 999 if you broke down 2 miles out of the village on a country road - but you would if you broke down on the M25 ...
 
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