jimi
Well-Known Member
Possibly both, the lack of boating skills may make an inexperienced skipper think the world is about to end and therfore justifies a mayday.
A Mayday, really?
- Thread starter jonjo
- Start date
Possibly both, the lack of boating skills may make an inexperienced skipper think the world is about to end and therfore justifies a mayday.
TonyBuckley
Well-Known Member
This is a fascinating thread. So many varied opinions.
Last Saturday I took my yacht from Portsmouth to Brighton. The wind was very light and Southerly so the entire trip was under engine. It was quite bouncy especially around the Owers!
I did consider what to do if the engine failed, apart from try and fix it.
Towards the end of the trip, the visibility began to draw in.
As it happens, the trip was uneventful though did get through more fuel than expected but had plenty of reserve.
So my plan for engine failure very much depended on where we were re Pan Pan or Mayday. But, and I think this the important thing, if I thought the situation would decay into something bad in an hour (say), then it would be a Mayday even if no immediate danger.
Last Saturday I took my yacht from Portsmouth to Brighton. The wind was very light and Southerly so the entire trip was under engine. It was quite bouncy especially around the Owers!
I did consider what to do if the engine failed, apart from try and fix it.
Towards the end of the trip, the visibility began to draw in.
As it happens, the trip was uneventful though did get through more fuel than expected but had plenty of reserve.
So my plan for engine failure very much depended on where we were re Pan Pan or Mayday. But, and I think this the important thing, if I thought the situation would decay into something bad in an hour (say), then it would be a Mayday even if no immediate danger.
pmagowan
Well-Known Member
Why?
fireball
Well-Known Member
Just re-reading - I can see where you're coming from - but IMHO it would be a PanPan at most - assuming you had no control over the vessel due to lack of wind ... if you left the call until it became something bad then I could understand the Mayday ...
I would've thought your biggest risk would be hypothermia ... after that it's the fishing vessels who may or may not be looking out ...
laika
Well-Known Member
A good response. Where do you set the bar though? Manoeuvres under sail like MOB/anchoring/picking up or leaving a mooring aren't examined at the ICC/Dayskipper level. Setting the bar higher might be seen as inhibiting people's ability to get out on the water. And what about motorboaters? Compulsory diesel engine certificates? Whilst I understand your point completely I'm not sure that compulsory certification of the type that would be likely to be introduced would address the perceived problem in hand.
dom
Well-Known Member
Introducing the French system of charging for a tow might!
Saying that, perhaps old Sybarite might sense this comment in the ether and come along to extol the merits of the French system!
Triassic
Well-Known Member
Exactly the point I made earlier. Nobody expects a breakdown service to come out and tow their car to a garage for free, why should it be any different on the water? If you're involved in an emergency on the road the police and ambulance will attend and deal with you for free, but you're always going to get charged for the recovery of your vehicle.
pmagowan
Well-Known Member
When I did day skipper to charter a boat, a year or so ago, they certainly covered MOB under sail. The others were discussed but no demonstrated as they seemed to think that if you had adequate knowledge and skill then it was simply a matter of putting them to practice in a slightly different scenario. I am not sure if this was 'on the course syllabus' or simply included for good measure. As far as I am concerned, if you are competent to sail then you should be able to attempt these things without undue risk.
pmagowan
Well-Known Member
There are two things
1) The risks are somewhat different on a boat.
2) The RNLI are paid for by charitable donations and seem adequately resourced. No such service exists for motor vehicles on land.
fireball
Well-Known Member
Nobody expects a breakdown service for free - but how often do people call 999 because their engine has failed - unless you're on a motorway or perhaps busy/main dual carriageway you're most likely to call breakdown service - be that commercial or family/friend.
Triassic
Well-Known Member
At the risk of being slightly contentious why? There are clearly circumstances where a broken down boat could be, or could get into danger, but are these circumstances really so hard to anticipate or avoid? It seems to me that there is a reluctance to place responsibility onto the individual sailor so that they make adequate provision for problems that could reasonably be expected to occur. Are peoples memories so short that they cannot recall the recent Captain Calamity thread?
pmagowan
Well-Known Member
Well, there are lots of reasons why the risks are greater on a boat than in a car but none of them make anyone free from their responsibility to a good level of seamanship.
If, however, someone gets in trouble at sea there is a very good argument for having minimal barriers to them seeking assistance because the problem can deteriorate quickly with risk to life. The RNLI have always taken this view. Many people are very resistant to calling a mayday even if it is justified and some would leave things too late, especially if they thought there might be repercussions. It is a psychological thing. Perhaps the RNLI are happy to put up with the over-anxious few in the knowledge that they will appear open and happy to help to those that may feel a psychological barrier to calling them when in need.
Also, why charge when you are making plenty of money through good will. Charging may put people's noses out of joint and erode some of that good will. I have never needed them myself but have been in situations where, if something went wrong, I would be very glad of seeing the big orange boat appearing. So far, everything that has gone wrong on my boat I have been able to fix myself, or at least get to safety under my own steam (or lack of steam).
BrianH
Well-Known Member
Somewhat inadequate if my experience making a DSC upgrade a few years ago is anything to go by - hands-on practice was very limited and most on the course hadn't got much clue - but no one failed to my knowledge.
Perhaps the Germans who complained about the one-day UK course and test - against their three days - had a point when they were threatening to not recognise a UK VHF SRC.
dom
Well-Known Member
A chap I know who used to be an RNLI crew member in a southwest station told me this story:
The boat in question is apparently still sailing those same waters. Doesn't exactly make it easy, does it :ambivalence:
At about 2am one morning a Mayday call came in from a yacht with a broken engine -- position about 15 miles south of the Eddystone Rocks. So out the AWB went only to find the boat happily sailing along at about 2.5kts in 10kts of wind. The Lifeboat offered a tow, but the yacht declined saying his cleat wasn't strong enough. After about an hour of shadowing the Coastguard asked the yacht to downgrade the call; the skipper refused saying that he "knew his rights" and that the "Lifeboat had to make sure they were safe" ...but that "he as the skipper remained in charge of his vessel". They could have told him where to go, but imagine if something had gone wrong. So for the next five hours the Lifeboat chugged along and when they finally reached the harbour it helped the boat come alongside, whereupon he berated them for putting a black mark on his topsides. Nobody got a wink of sleep that night.
The boat in question is apparently still sailing those same waters. Doesn't exactly make it easy, does it :ambivalence:
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alant
Well-Known Member
Not all LB's operating within the Solent are RNLI.
alant
Well-Known Member
Again the question, what about your anchor?
TonyBuckley
Well-Known Member
So if engine failed at the Owers then yes I would try to sail with the southerly, but my boat is heavy and I know no progress would be made. There were no boats - whole trip was surprisingly quiet.
It was a warm day so I do not understand the hypothermia comment?
Any mayday needs time to respond, hence me saying projecting ahead. A Pan Pan would be a lovely conversation saying hello "tell us how you are doing", yet I would know I would be in possible trouble an hour later - too late for a Mayday response. I would have no problem declaring a mayday at that point, but I would also have no problem paying for a rescue.
The only other risk I had was the Portsmouth submerged barrier, after the Owers it was open water for a long way with much more than an hour of tolerance.
TonyBuckley
Well-Known Member
Yes that is a good question though I must have missed it being asked before. I carry fifty meters of chain and loads of line. The owers is not a good anchor point. Who knows?
chanelyacht
Well-Known Member
I'm fully aware of that, I've crewed on one for ten years (on and off), and still do. Also, there of over 60 independent boats around the country.
The procedure is still the same though, HMCG only request any lifeboat to launch, it can't be ordered. The only difference in the Solent is many of the indie lifeboats go out on patrol, in which case they are afloat when a distress call is made, and respond under the "mariners' obligation".
Any UK lifeboat can always turn down a tasking if they believe it is unsafe for them to attend, or if they believe the call is not justified.
chanelyacht
Well-Known Member
You seem to assume no asset would be tasked to your assistance in the hour following your pan call.
A mayday in the situation you describe is totally unjustified - it is a pan call, following which the MRCC would have more than enough time to either find you a nearby vessel to tow you, or task an appropriate asset.
Your "mayday" call could result in the diversion of an asset already going to another job, or unnecessary diversion of other craft in the vacinity.
The mayday definition is quite clear internationally - "grave and imminent danger to life or vessel".