A lot of Junk!

[Jacket]

I was reading in the Times T2 supplement this morning that some historian reckons that a Chinese guy by the name of Zeng He was the first person to discover America, in 1421.

However, the bit that got me was the description of his boats. Apparently he had a fleet of 107 ships, in which he carried 28,000 people.

His largest ships were decribed as being 400 feet long, 90 foot beam, with around 7 masts and a crew of 1000. And apparently they've found the remains of wrecks of boats this size.

This seems amazing to me. Columbus' boats were around 60 foot loa. Did the clipper ships even get up to 400 foot?

Does anyone know any more about this? did these ships really exist, or is it just some historian (by the name of Gavin Menzies) trying to promote his new book?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Define discover

>was the first person to discover America, in 1421<

Tell that to the Anasazi who been living there for many centuries before that.

"The Anasazi, ('anaa' - war, alien, enemy and sazi - ancestor, ancestral ) is a name of Navajo origin, meaning "ancestral aliens or enemies." (McPherson 1992, p78) This term is used to describe an ancient race of Pueblo Indians who resided in Southwestern USA for a period of approximately 2000 years. This habitance lasted from 700BC to the arrival of the Spaniards in the Southwest, in the 16th century. (Ferguson & Rohn, 1987) The ancestors of the Anasazi are believed to have come from Asia, across a land bridge connecting what is now Siberia and Alaska, and migrated south till they reached the Four Corners Region of the USA. At this time, they met other Indians who were farmers, who donated seed and thus, the Anasazi settled and began farming the land."

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: Define discover

Also not to forget the fuqawi, who are 4 foot tall and live in 5 foot buffalo grass...

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Define discover

Aren't they the ones that hunt oohmigooly birds?

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: Define discover

No, you're thinking of the winkywanky bird. Don't throw sand in his eye, madam.

 

[Ohdrat]

"His largest ships were decribed as being 400 feet long, 90 foot beam, with around 7 masts and a crew of 1000. And apparently they've found the remains of wrecks of boats this size."... errrrr no wonder they're remains what with all those <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=ym&Number=276366&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&part=>Rogue Waves</A> about

 

[claymore]

Re: Define discover

Closely related to the richest animal in the world - the Rhinosorarse
Rhino coming from the latin for money and sorarse meaning piles - piles of money

regards
Claymore

 

[Twister_Ken]

In case you\'ve had a sheltered upbringing...

... and are wondering what's going on, check

http://www.thehookers.nl/wildwest.html

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: In case you\'ve had a sheltered upbringing...

I had a very sheltered upbringing but spent much of it playing rugby.

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Define discover

actually sorarse meaning how he got the money!!

 

[jamesjermain]

Fascinating

If true, or even partly true, this is an amazing story. Does anyone have any serious answers to this post? It fascinates me.

JJ

 

[Spacewaist]

Old-ish news;Link to story

Try : http://www.chinapage.com/history/zhenghe2.html

LOOK OUT!!! Behind y.......! Five more hoots and you're history!

 

[pugwash]

They've found wrecks of junks but not of this size, as far as I know. What interests me is whether it's indeed possible, let along credible, to build a 400-footer capable of circling the world (think Cape Horn, etc) with a crew of 1,000 ---all built of bamboo scaffoldng poles and hand-sawn planks. I think not. The man pushing these theories is a retired submarine commander so he does (or should) have more of a handle on these questions than your average historian. Even so, I'm sure yacht sailors would think different. Right?

 

[Jacket]

I think the historian (Gavin Menzies) is claiming to have found at least one wreck of this size in the Caribean, and a couple more on Americas west coast, but isn't going to reveal their location till his book is published. Sounds a bit susspect to me.

The bit that really interests me is the size of the boats. 400 foot sounds very large for a wooden boat no matter when and by whom it was built. Did western ships of the 18th and 19th century ever get up to this size? If they did I see no reason why there couldn't have been junks of this size.

However, I imagine that there must be a practical upper limit to the size of boat that can be built of wood, due to limitations caused by the strength of the wood and the size of trees available?

Any ideas, anyone?

 

[jamesjermain]

I do hope this story turns out to be true. The idea that the Chinese, a very advanced people, could build wooden ships of that size in the 15thC is mind blowing. That they could sail them against the westerlies round the Cape of Good Hope and on to the Caribbean would be a fantastic achievement

I have no doubt the Chinese explored the world as far as the east coast of Africa in those days but I can't help feeling that if they reached Europe in ships of that size and with that many men, it would have been noted in European records of the time. would we have welcomed them warmly and invited them to give lectures on ship construction and navigation? Or would we have tricked them ashore, slaughtered them in their beds and burned the ships?

I do find it hard to believe they managed a circumnavigation which ended in the Carribean, but I don't find it hard to believe that they reached America - but surely it would have been the west coast via the Pacific rim. Again, though, if they did, I am surprised there is not more evidence. Even accepting that the Chinese were/are an insular people, if they had discovered a brand new land beyond the rising sun, would they not have made more effort to explore it?

JJ

 

[pugwash]

Suspicious is right! Iron cannon, glass bottles, yes, but what timber relics from so long ago have been pulled out of the Caribbean? The teredo worm consumes everything made of wood in a matter of months.

The great American clippers of the 1850s (Flying Cloud etc) were built of local softwoods which didn't last more than a few voyages and the hulls soon hogged. It was only when the British stepped in with composite constgruction -- timber on iron or steel frames -- that clippers like the Cutty Sark began to endure. It seems to me utterly incredible that even a sophisticated society would succeed in building a 400-ft vessel carrying 1,000 men (all that food and water!) and sail it round the world. It will be fascinating to see what the "evidence" turns out to be.