A long sweep

dylanwinter

dylanwinter

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 Mar 2005
Messages
12,954
Location
Buckingham
www.keepturningleft.co.uk
I want a long oar with which to steer Katie L when it is too shallow for the rudder

in its kicked up position I assume it will be a horrible thing to try to steer the boat with

I will put a crutch near the stern -

to take the oar

mostly for steering but occasionally for sculling

How long?

what shape?

where from?

does anyone have one in their garage that they would be prepared to swap for some DVDs?



there are some snaps of the boat here

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/rigging-diagrams/

some reviews here

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/minstrel-reviews-20002003/

and being sailed here

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/katie-l-hits-the-water/

Dylan
 
If I remember rightly, old wooden boats used to have a semi-circular cutout on the transom for sculling. It might be possible to make up a fitting to enable a bronze rowlock to pivot enough for sculling.
Nice boat!
N
 
bless you

diapason said:
If I remember rightly, old wooden boats used to have a semi-circular cutout on the transom for sculling. It might be possible to make up a fitting to enable a bronze rowlock to pivot enough for sculling.
Nice boat!
N
Click to expand...

Bless you

you have no idea how much that last line means to me

after having been a slug owner for five year

I have really missed the phrase

Dylan
 
I'd think a partly raised rudder will be much more convenient for steering than a long oar. It's there and its fixed in position!

It 'll need a fairly long sweep for sculling. A "yuloh" (q.v) mounted so that it will rock and swing from side to side. A rope lanyard from under the handle to the deck counterbalances the weight and by pulling and pushing on this lanyard the yuloh automatically rocks as it swings from side to side.

I do scull my little dinghy but I use one of its oars in a rowlock mounted on the transom top. Its Ok for getting in and out through the narrow entrance to the yard slipway but not for anything serious.
 
never serious

VicS said:
I'd think a partly raised rudder will be much more convenient for steering than a long oar. It's there and its fixed in position!

It 'll need a fairly long sweep for sculling. A "yuloh" (q.v) mounted so that it will rock and swing from side to side. A rope from under the handle to the deck counterbalances the weight and by pulling and pushing on this rope the yuloh automatically rocks as it swings from side to side.

I do scull my little dinghy but I use one of its oars in a rowlock mounted on the transom top. Its Ok for getting in and out through the narrow entrance to the yard slipway but not for anything serious.
Click to expand...

I do not intend doing anything serious...

yuloh would be wrong for the boat

the trouble with the raised rudder is that it is working at a tremendous disadvantage - the pressure on the stock is all in the wrong direction

like a dinghy rudder whne raised - a horrible thing to use

having used the steering oar on the duck punt.... I think that steering with an oar in the right place might be more pleasant and more positive than a raised rudder

Dylan
 
dylanwinter said:
Bless you

you have no idea how much that last line means to me

after having been a slug owner for five year

I have really missed the phrase

Dylan
Click to expand...


I've just bought my first boat - a Skipper 17 trailersailer - not a particularly good looking boat, but I hope she will give me the experience to go on later to an old wooden gaffer. Your boat has great lines and looks very sea-kindly.
I meant to add that you could probably pick up an old long wooden oar from a boatyard or a club. There are about 20 abandoned boats at my club - very sad, but I hope to pick up some bits when they sell them off later this season.
N
 
VicS said:
I'd think a partly raised rudder will be much more convenient for steering than a long oar. It's there and its fixed in position!

It 'll need a fairly long sweep for sculling. A "yuloh" (q.v) mounted so that it will rock and swing from side to side. A rope lanyard from under the handle to the deck counterbalances the weight and by pulling and pushing on this lanyard the yuloh automatically rocks as it swings from side to side.

I do scull my little dinghy but I use one of its oars in a rowlock mounted on the transom top. Its Ok for getting in and out through the narrow entrance to the yard slipway but not for anything serious.
Click to expand...

+1, I remember French boats of about 24' ( Muscadets ? ) having a scull, but reckon it's a mugs' game overall.

When young I and a mate tried rowing ( not sculling ) my boat around Portland, we only had improvised lengthened oars and with the two of us working hard were lucky to make 1 knot; I do have a rowlock on the transom for emergency steering, but I think you'll normally be a lot better off with the raised rudder, I steer with my rudder up, it just takes coarser movements - and strong fittings & backing pads.

And Dylan, yes Katie does look pretty, reminds me of American designs - actually The Slug has a certain charm too, just the name stuck !
 
diapason said:
I've just bought my first boat - a Skipper 17 trailersailer - not a particularly good looking boat, but I hope she will give me the experience to go on later to an old wooden gaffer. Your boat has great lines and looks very sea-kindly.
I meant to add that you could probably pick up an old long wooden oar from a boatyard or a club. There are about 20 abandoned boats at my club - very sad, but I hope to pick up some bits when they sell them off later this season.
N
Click to expand...

Diapason,

funny you should say that, my club just had a serious tidy up of the boatshed and left anything unclaimed in a heap; people got all sorts of useful bits & pieces, it was like a free boat jumble !

The Skipper 17 was made under subcontract by Anderson Rigden & Perkins at Whitstable.
 
when bumping up a channel

Seajet said:
+1, I remember French boats of about 24' ( Muscadets ? ) having a scull, but reckon it's a mugs' game overall.

When young I and a mate tried rowing ( not sculling ) my boat around Portland, we only had improvised lengthened oars and with the two of us working hard were lucky to make 1 knot; I do have a rowlock on the transom for emergency steering, but I think you'll normally be a lot better off with the raised rudder, I steer with my rudder up, it just takes coarser movements - and strong fittings & backing pads.

And Dylan, yes Katie does look pretty, reminds me of American designs - actually The Slug has a certain charm too, just the name stuck !
Click to expand...


One of the things I love doing is bumping up a channel with the incoming tide

drift and bump.... drift and bump

I do not intend to make progress through the water - well not that much - just use the oar to position myself in the right part of the stream

I did have a go at steering the boat with the rudder up and it did not feel good

the rudder on the boat does look a bit vulnerable to me

the rudder on the slug was the same depth as the long keel and had a stub keel either side of it

the Minstrel rudder looks much more vulnerable - so a back up steering system would be most re-assuring

as for sea keeping....

I am hoping that the life-boat shape is one that offers plenty of bouyancy for a following sea - and it those that are the really frightening ones

So, how long are yacht sweeps

at one time they must have been pretty common


Dylan
 
the trouble with the raised rudder is that it is working at a tremendous disadvantage - the pressure on the stock is all in the wrong direction

like a dinghy rudder whne raised - a horrible thing to use
Click to expand...

A rudder with a vertical lifting blade ??
 
dylanwinter said:
the trouble with the raised rudder is that it is working at a tremendous disadvantage - the pressure on the stock is all in the wrong direction

like a dinghy rudder whne raised - a horrible thing to use
Click to expand...

On my boat there's a FUNDAMENTAL problem with using the rudder raised, far more serious than it just not feeling nice. That is, it fouls the outboard.

With the rudder up, I can only steer ahead, or starboard. Try to turn to port and the outboard minces the rudder (yes I know this for a fact:mad:)
 
I've only seen a yacht steered by an oar once. When I use the word 'steered' I use it very loosely. It took them three attempts to even line up successfully with the entrance to the marina.

You might want to carry out a few experiments before splashing out too much on a permanent arrangement.
 
I hate to be predictable, but !

The Anderson 22 has a vertically lifting rudder, on a stainless pintle the full height of the transom.

The rudder itself is a 1 piece iroko spade job, quite heavy but still easily raised by a single line purchase to a clamcleat.

As mentioned the boat can be steered with the rudder almost fully up, just needs coarser movements on the tiller.

The disadvantage is that if the rudder settles on a hard spot the pintle - which is the same as standard guardrail stanchions - can get slightly bent, making the rudder a bit stiff to raise.

I think this highly preferable overall compared to a dinghy style pivotted rudder blade such as on the Seal 22, but to be realistic Dylan, I'd stick with what you've got and just have that Plan B oar in mind, obviously with plenty of area in case the Plan A rudder gets jammed over someshow !

I know what you're getting at Dylan, sailing a dinghy with the rudder blade up is awful and puts a lot of force on, but it would require work and money to fit a vertically lifting rudder to KatieL ; feel free to mail me for pics if intent on doing this.

Andy
 
rudders

Lifting rudders are common on TS in Oz. While mine has a swing rudder most of my kind of boat are made with lifting rudder. It is advantageous to be able to raise the rudder just as much as you need for shallow water. The frame for the rudder is different to swing arrangement. Some have a spring loaded gate at the back so if you hit anything the rudder can spring out rather than wreck the transom.
Other alternatives for Dylan might be rudder pintles on a track so you can raise the whole rudder and tiller up enough to be out of the mud. This would need perhaps 2 side by side but spaced tracks to get the strength to take side loads.
Another idea might be to stick with the swing rudder but make a blade for shallow water work much shallower with longer chord and balance to match the length of chord. i feel sure however after trying a shallow rudder that for open water you will find the deep rudder far better.
I tend to agree with Vic that a sweep oar will not be a good rudder. The turning loads wwill be huge. Although there is the possibility of rowing the stern sideways without forward movement. (your own stern side thruster) put a rowlock at the bow for a bow thruster!!!
My little boat 21ft rows quite well under still conditions with 2 oars using the stern rail uprights as rowlocks. One person can do it but you need to tie the helm straight and of course look out the front often. An autohelm would be really useful here. good luck olewill
 
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