8mm chain with spliced 3 core on Lewmar windlass, need more nylon

[simonfraser]

The three core does not always go down the hole and jams
is there a better nylon option ?
thinking of keeping the chain and self splicing a longer nylon rope on
tnx

 

[sarabande]

What do you mean by "three core" please ? Braid over 3 strand ???


What's the diameter of the present rope ?

 

[simonfraser]

3 strand
Diameter good Q
Not at the boat now

 

[Boathook]

The three core does not always go down the hole and jams
is there a better nylon option ?
thinking of keeping the chain and self splicing a longer nylon rope on
tnx

My south pacific windlass did that with 8mm chain and 14mm 3 strand nylon. I renewed the chain, a lot longer, to get rid of of the rope. Octoplatt? rope that behaves a bit more like chain may work but a lot of windlasses won't grip a softer rope.

 

[jdc]

The issue is usually the splice. A splice should not be fatter than the chain nor much less flexible, so the through-and-through 8-plait splice almost invariably jams in the gypsy or hawse pipe so is not the best if you have a windlass with hawser pipe at right-angles to the gypsy's exit. Instead use 3-strand rope in the traditional chain splice which always works with my windlass at least. NB: it's NOT a back splice with all three strands. To make it, you pass two strands through the last chain link, winding one of them back in place of the third strand which is unwound for about 50cm. Finish that one off as for a long-splice. The second one which is passed through the chain link is spliced back for about 15 - 20 cm as for a short splice.

Passing all three strands through the last link - an ordinary back splice - actually makes a worse job (but it's easier so the one usually shown on you tube by amateur pedagogues): it's bulkier and less flexible while being slightly weaker! In case wondering how only 2 of the three strands can be stronger, reflect that it's actually 4 strands sharing the load, which is obviously enough given it's 3 strands along the length of the rope. And with only two passing through the chain link they lie better and not on top of each other. See the Rigging Handbook by Brian Toss for example. Done properly it should achieve 97% of the strength of the unspliced rope.

 

[thinwater]

The issue is usually the splice. A splice should not be fatter than the chain nor much less flexible, so the through-and-through 8-plait splice almost invariably jams in the gypsy or hawse pipe so is not the best if you have a windlass with hawser pipe at right-angles to the gypsy's exit. Instead use 3-strand rope in the traditional chain splice which always works with my windlass at least. NB: it's NOT a back splice with all three strands. To make it, you pass two strands through the last chain link, winding one of them back in place of the third strand which is unwound for about 50cm. Finish that one off as for a long-splice. The second one which is passed through the chain link is spliced back for about 15 - 20 cm as for a short splice.

Passing all three strands through the last link - an ordinary back splice - actually makes a worse job (but it's easier so the one usually shown on you tube by amateur pedagogues): it's bulkier and less flexible while being slightly weaker! In case wondering how only 2 of the three strands can be stronger, reflect that it's actually 4 strands sharing the load, which is obviously enough given it's 3 strands along the length of the rope. And with only two passing through the chain link they lie better and not one top of each other. See the Rigging Handbook by Brian Toss for example. Should achieve 97% of the strength of the unspliced rope.

^^This. It is a more advanced splice, but it flies around a Lewmar vertical windlass like silk. Instead of 6 strands, it is never more than 4 strands and more flexible.

Irony Splice

 

[simonfraser]

its a lewmar V700

this video kinda helps

like the irony splice

hm is my chain 8mm, lewmar says 6 or 7 mm chain only, will have to get a micrometer on the link

 

[thinwater]

its a lewmar V700

this video kinda helps

like the irony splice

hm is my chain 8mm, lewmar says 6 or 7 mm chain only, will have to get a micrometer on the link

I use a V700 with 1/4-inch G43 chain and 1/2-inch 3-strand.

 

[Neeves]

Look at the windlass - somewhere on the gypsy it will define what size of chain is appropriate. The size will be embossed or (what is the word for the opposite of embossing?) or recessed into the circumference or marked similarly on one of the 2 facing plates (which means you need to take the gypsy off ). Measuring the link might give an erroneous result if the chain is well used.

Personally if its 6mm I'd buy extra chain and use a snubber. To have nylon to the same strength as the chain means its beefy (and thus more difficult to splice to the 'smaller' chain and beefy rope lacks elasticity. It is even more difficult to match rope and chain if the chain is a stronger chain, G40 and worse G70 as you really need an oversized piece of nylon to match strength. It also means you store chain on top of wet (manky?) rope - a recipe for a short chain life unless you religiously store then separately and wash them equally religiously with fresh water.

If you are reluctant to retire the existing chain - use it as your spare rode (to go with your spare anchor) - as you obviously carry a spare anchor as good as your primary (not the one you retired because it was not good enough ) - and its not much use without a rode. Hand deploying and retrieving 6mm chain is a breeze.

Jonathan

 

[PaulRainbow]

The three core does not always go down the hole and jams
is there a better nylon option ?
thinking of keeping the chain and self splicing a longer nylon rope on
tnx

Do you mean the splice jams or the rope jams at random places ?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Look at the windlass - somewhere on the gypsy it will define what size of chain is appropriate. The size will be embossed or (what is the word for the opposite of embossing?) or recessed into the circumference or marked similarly on one of the 2 facing plates (which means you need to take the gypsy off ). Measuring the link might give an erroneous result if the chain is well used.

Personally if its 6mm I'd buy extra chain and use a snubber. To have nylon to the same strength as the chain means its beefy (and thus more difficult to splice to the 'smaller' chain and beefy rope lacks elasticity. It is even more difficult to match rope and chain if the chain is a stronger chain, G40 and worse G70 as you really need an oversized piece of nylon to match strength. It also means you store chain on top of wet (manky?) rope - a recipe for a short chain life unless you religiously store then separately and wash them equally religiously with fresh water.

If you are reluctant to retire the existing chain - use it as your spare rode (to go with your spare anchor) - as you obviously carry a spare anchor as good as your primary (not the one you retired because it was not good enough ) - and its not much use without a rode. Hand deploying and retrieving 6mm chain is a breeze.

Jonathan

It's worth remembering that the OP has a small mobo, based on the East Coast of the UK and he weekends on it. So, he won't need an anchoring solution for cruising the World. I think your idea of switching to 6mm chain only makes perfect sense, it's unlikely he'll need miles of it so weght shouldn't be an issue.

 

[LadyInBed]

Is the Rope Stripper on the windlass in good order?

 

[Neeves]

It's worth remembering that the OP has a small mobo, based on the East Coast of the UK and he weekends on it. So, he won't need an anchoring solution for cruising the World. I think your idea of switching to 6mm chain only makes perfect sense, it's unlikely he'll need miles of it so weght shouldn't be an issue.

I suggested 6mm chain because Simon said the chain might be 6mm or 7mm in post No 7, so if his gypsy is 6mm then 8mm (the title of the thread) is decidedly overkill for a smaller vessel (and a bit of a red herring). If its 8mm then I'd suggest sticking with the existing chain (8mm) as a new gypsy will be prohibitively expensive but he could go down in nylon size - chosen for the size of the vessel not to match the strength of the chain. . Using a smaller rope will be much easier to splice and will more easily be accepted by the gypsy. However Simon needs to check what rope size Lewmar recommends for the gypsy he has. It might be necessary to talk to Lewmar giving Lewmar the gypsy reference number and they will know exactly which rope size(s) are applicable. Obviously if its 8mm the gypsy will be sized for compatible rope - in which case Simon needs to err on the smallest size accepted (by the gypsy).

As usual there are lots of acceptable options - but the answers will lie with a confirmation of the chain and rope sizes compatible for the gypsy.

The '700' nomenclature of the windlass suggest motor size - which seems more appropriate for 6mm or 7mm chain and a smaller vessel. If Simon has been trying to use rope appropriate for 8mm (because that's what he thought the chain size was and the rope was recommended as compatible with 8mm) - I'm not surprised the windlass will not accept the splice - its all too big and the simple answer is - smaller rope.

Jonathan

 

[simonfraser]

Do you mean the splice jams or the rope jams at random places ?

tnx all, thinking about it, it jams mostly when i have laid all the rope out (as it is a tad short)
possible that the bitter end 'stand' up under the windlass and provides no pull at all

99% sure it is a V700, which comes standard with only one gypsy
the gypsy number is on it somewhere i assume, for that the top will have to come off, or ?


(agree the chain is bigger than it needs to be for my boat / use)

 

[Neeves]

tnx all, thinking about it, it jams mostly when i have laid all the rope out (as it is a tad short)
possible that the bitter end 'stand' up under the windlass and provides no pull at all

99% sure it is a V700, which comes standard with only one gypsy
the gypsy number is on it somewhere i assume, for that the top will have to come off, or ?


(agree the chain is bigger than it needs to be for my boat / use)

If the V700 only comes with only one gypsy then it only can accept one chain size (though I don't know the difference in LINK size between 6mm and 7mm and some gypsies are more forgiving of different specification of the chain). If it only accepts one chain size then contact Lewmar and ask them - and ask what is the recommended rope size. This will take minutes - visiting your yacht and finding out might take hours.

Thinwater uses a V700, his chain is 1/4" (normally closest to 6mm) and 1/2" 3 strand - what rope do you use (accept you might not know without a visit to your boat).


But this makes no sense

(agree the chain is bigger than it needs to be for my boat / use)

If the V700 only accepts one chain size (and that chain size is Thinwater's 1/4") then your chain cannot be too big at 8mm as it would not, normally, fit.


Windlass normally accept a range of gypsies and though the windlass might have been designed round a specific chain size the manfurers know that owners, previous owners, or commissioners have their own ideas and there are often overlaps. Our windlass was designed round 8mm metric - we use 6mm and there is a gypsy to fit (and maybe one for both ISO and DIN 10mm - don't know). The same windlass c an be used for imperial chain, with different gypsies - 1/4", 5/16th" (maybe 3/8th") and for BBB, G30, G43 and G70 chain - for a windlass maker - a nightmare.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

Edit

I've just checked and the suggestion is, what you have posted, that the V700 can be used with 6mm and 7mm and 1/4" chain - but it is not clear if this demands different gypsies. The suggestion is that one gypsy fit all the options, 6mm, 7mm, 1/4" in BBB, G43, G30 and G70 chain configurations - but oddly - no mention of dual usage rope and chain (noting that Thinwater has no problems).

Thin uses 1/2" - what have have you been 'trying' to use might be the key.

J

 

[simonfraser]

tnx, yes did check on line too as you say only 6 and 7 mm & 1/4 inch
however, it takes the chain no prob
its the 1/2 rope that needs checking - will do so

 

[PaulRainbow]

tnx all, thinking about it, it jams mostly when i have laid all the rope out (as it is a tad short)
possible that the bitter end 'stand' up under the windlass and provides no pull at all

99% sure it is a V700, which comes standard with only one gypsy
the gypsy number is on it somewhere i assume, for that the top will have to come off, or ?


(agree the chain is bigger than it needs to be for my boat / use)

The V700 gypsy is able to accept 6mm DIN766, 1/4" G4 or BBB, 7mm DIN766 chains. Although it's wrong, i have seen one used with 8mm chain, which was a very poor fit, but it did actually work, so it is possible that you do have 8mm. There are no alternative gypsies for the V700.

The gypsy can be used with 12mm or 14mm rope, but 14mm doesn't look to fit that well to me, i'd only use 12mm.

Given your boat, your usage pattern, the fact you usually single hand and where you are based, an all chain rode might well be a better choice. An appropriate length of 6mm chain should not be too heavy. If you don't want to go all chain, i'd use some 6mm chain with 12mm rope.

 

[simonfraser]

ok, i ordered rope and chain from one of the main UK suppliers and asked them for advise
they supplied LIROS 12mm anchorplait nylon and 6mm Chain
that runs out just fine, rope jams (video) on the way back in

the much stiffer 3 strand nylon that was on the 1yr old boat is v stiff and did not uncoil on the way out, so jammed the other way
at least it came back in no prob, but it's too short for my use

 

[simonfraser]

^^This. It is a more advanced splice, but it flies around a Lewmar vertical windlass like silk. Instead of 6 strands, it is never more than 4 strands and more flexible.

Irony Splice

thinwater, what type / make of rope is that ?
tnx, Simon

 

[jdc]

Answering for myself (who suggested this style of splice), I use Polyester from English Braids. Polyester 3-strand was strongly recommended by English Braids instead of Nylon as Nylon goes stiff and unspliceable rather quickly, <6 months, and in practice Polyester has sufficient stretch.