40-50 foot sport cruisers with surface drives?

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lufihengr

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I'm trying to find all the builders making this type of boat nowadays.

I know there is Pershing (smallest is 54 foot) and OTAM with the 45. Are there any others? I ask because I saw that back in the day you could get the Sunseeker Superhawk with surface drives, but as far as I can tell, you can't get a Predator with SD's.

So that started my mission to see who offers SD's in that class and size of boat

Google doesn't seem very helpful, all it comes up with is Pershing. I noticed OTAM by accident. Builders don't seem to have search engine optimization as a priority lol
 
Itama did a few pre 2004 under Amarti .
The 46 with MAN 800s or MTU 762 s
They do bigger as well up to 75 .
Itama + Pershing are made theses days on the same line @ Forli .If you ask nicely they will build you a bespoke boat , you will need deep pockets .
 
Baia , they did a 43 with Yanmars + Arnies , and some larger .
Bit bigger Pershing 50 could be specced with Arnies and Baia 54 , as said there are few Itama mid 50 s to 60 with V 12 s but they are big boats .

Try the “Arneson surface drive “ Facebook page .....loadsa mostly American speed boats .
 
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I think Mig did some 43s with some and maybe Sarnico.
Tullio Abbate? Performance Marine? (Ok maybe getting a bit races now).
 
lufihengr said:
I'm trying to find all the builders making this type of boat nowadays.
Click to expand...
First things first: WHY are you doing that?
If it's just out of curiosity, I could throw in a few names.
But if it's for a potential purchasing interest, I'd rather try to talk you out of it.
Not because surface drives as such are bad, but because their cons far outweigh their pros, even assuming that you are interested in a fast boat.
Particularly at that size, because surface drives imho only come into their own above above 60 feet at the very least, and they keep getting better as size grows further.
 
MapisM said:
First things first: WHY are you doing that?
If it's just out of curiosity, I could throw in a few names.
But if it's for a potential purchasing interest, I'd rather try to talk you out of it.
Not because surface drives as such are bad, but because their cons far outweigh their pros, even assuming that you are interested in a fast boat.
Particularly at that size, because surface drives imho only come into their own above above 60 feet at the very least, and they keep getting better as size grows further.
Click to expand...
I’ve had nothing to compare to but I’ve yet to find any cons, people that haven’t driven them say they are hard to manoeuvre at slow speed, I’d disagree, I’ve not had any problems getting into my birth, there are pros, speed, economy and they are accessible to clean.
 
MapisM said:
First things first: WHY are you doing that?
If it's just out of curiosity, I could throw in a few names.
But if it's for a potential purchasing interest, I'd rather try to talk you out of it.
Not because surface drives as such are bad, but because their cons far outweigh their pros, even assuming that you are interested in a fast boat.
Particularly at that size, because surface drives imho only come into their own above above 60 feet at the very least, and they keep getting better as size grows further.
Click to expand...

Mostly curiosity.

But I'm definitely interested in hearing about your experiece. I like speed for sure, it's a definite attraction. And the rooster tail :D

Like @Chris H said, economy at speed is a strong suit. As I haven't had a chance to pilot one, I don't know how it is to handle so I have to live through your experiences for now :P
 
Rizzardi 45 Incredible S3 (S for surface drives 3 for having the third largest engine option Man R6 730hp) Rizzardi use top system. 44/45 knots max with this set up
Other option is Baia 48 Flash. All where made this way. Cat 3208 the first 440hp (36 knots top end), Volvo 74/75 (37/38 top) Cat 660hp (only one or two made made 50 knots but very high low end planning speed, Volvo D9 575hp 44 knots top end). Best set up is Volvo 575hp followed by 480hp.
Both these are more a good mix of cabin and offshore stlye boating. Rizzardi 45 sold in over 70 units (04-09) and Baia 48 Flash sold 100+ in ten years plus of production.
Rizzardi 45 Incredible was replaced by 48 In, same model different stern and with a crew a crew cabin.

Pershing made the 46 with SD only four made. It was an option which Pershing themselves used to tell you the shaft boat is better.
The problem here is that a Pershing 46 is only a whisker cheaper then a 50 with SD. Let say they are not Pershing best SD boats both the 46 and 50. The 52 and 54 are much better boats.
Pershing also had the same option for the 48 with surface drive of Cats 660hp, good for 42 knots. Only three where made.

Other options are the following.
Magnum 44 Banzai.
Otam 45 Heritage.
Mig 50 comes with Cats C12 710hp and up to 45 knots of top speed.
Itama 46 this is similar to the Pershing in the sense that it was a rare option, the difference that the 46 runs as good with SDs as it does without them.
About four Itama 46 with SDs where made out of 40 plus boats (95-03). Amati was not a bg fan of SDs and considering that his boat have among the lowest of shaft angles the performance gain was less to other boats about four knots).

Sarnico Spider did a couple with Flexidrive surface drives denominated V version. Again I think only 2 where made.

Out of mind these I can remember.
 
Chris H said:
I’ve had nothing to compare to but I’ve yet to find any cons, people that haven’t driven them say they are hard to manoeuvre at slow speed, I’d disagree, I’ve not had any problems getting into my birth, there are pros, speed, economy and they are accessible to clean.
Click to expand...

Agree, maneuvering isn't that bad really, if it's howling then you just need to speed things up a little and give the wind more leeway. You feel the effect of having very little boat in the water. I find that having the props around neutral is better than fully down, that way it doesn't just kick all the water into the hull.

The biggest PITA with SDs is the cleanliness aspect - we lose 2 knots off the cruise speed after 2 weeks sat still in the summer.
 
PowerYachtBlog said:
Rizzardi 45 Incredible S3 (S for surface drives 3 for having the third largest engine option Man R6 730hp) Rizzardi use top system. 44/45 knots max with this set up
Other option is Baia 48 Flash. All where made this way. Cat 3208 the first 440hp (36 knots top end), Volvo 74/75 (37/38 top) Cat 660hp (only one or two made made 50 knots but very high low end planning speed, Volvo D9 575hp 44 knots top end). Best set up is Volvo 575hp followed by 480hp.
Both these are more a good mix of cabin and offshore stlye boating. Rizzardi 45 sold in over 70 units (04-09) and Baia 48 Flash sold 100+ in ten years plus of production.
Rizzardi 45 Incredible was replaced by 48 In, same model different stern and with a crew a crew cabin.

Pershing made the 46 with SD only four made. It was an option which Pershing themselves used to tell you the shaft boat is better.
The problem here is that a Pershing 46 is only a whisker cheaper then a 50 with SD. Let say they are not Pershing best SD boats both the 46 and 50. The 52 and 54 are much better boats.
Pershing also had the same option for the 48 with surface drive of Cats 660hp, good for 42 knots. Only three where made.

Other options are the following.
Magnum 44 Banzai.
Otam 45 Heritage.
Mig 50 comes with Cats C12 710hp and up to 45 knots of top speed.
Itama 46 this is similar to the Pershing in the sense that it was a rare option, the difference that the 46 runs as good with SDs as it does without them.
About four Itama 46 with SDs where made out of 40 plus boats (95-03). Amati was not a bg fan of SDs and considering that his boat have among the lowest of shaft angles the performance gain was less to other boats about four knots).

Sarnico Spider did a couple with Flexidrive surface drives denominated V version. Again I think only 2 where made.

Out of mind these I can remember.
Click to expand...

Good stuff! Thanks
 
lufihengr said:
economy at speed is a strong suit.
Click to expand...
Do you know what economy at speed really is? An oxymoron.

Don't be fooled by the general principle of surface transmission higher efficiency, because that is only true within a (relatively) narrow speed range.
Sure, if you always cruise north of 35 knots, or even better above 40, for any given size/weight of boat you are going to burn less with SDs compared to shafts - which is VERY different from calling that speed "economical", anyway!
But the thing is, how often do you think you can really do that, in real world?
That's one of the reasons why I said that SDs make more sense with bigger boats: it's more likely that you'll be capable to keep cruising at 40+ knots with a Magnum 80', than with anything else in the size bracket you are considering. Which is pretty much stating the obvious, of course.

The other point is, define speed. Leaving offshore racing aside, if you want to go fast, you are much better off with outdrives than with any SDs.
None of the boats mentioned can go as fast as my old Fountain 27 fever could, with her single outdrive and stock engine.
And she was just the baby of their range - all other twin engines models being MUCH faster, up to 3 digits and beyond.
Not to mention that M6 and M8 sterndrives, which are actually spinning surface props exactly as any SDs (and with the same rooster tail, if that's your thing), are even more efficient.
Just as an example, have a look at this video to have an idea of what REALLY fast outdrives powered boats can do.
Mind, that very same boat, a few years later, took off and killed her crew. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Another thing: maneuverability aside, which is mostly a matter of practice, and surely isn't anywhere as bad as a single sterndrive (no prize for guessing how I know!), there are other drawbacks of SDs.
You must be religious with maintenance (which can be expensive!), to start with.
And also in keeping props and hull clean, not only for performance reasons, but also because SDs are already hard on engines by design, and they can easily overload them at intermediate RPM range, whenever the boat struggles to get on the plane.
Which can and does happen more frequently with SDs boats, even if I guess this might sound counterintuitive.

Bottom line, IMHO if you want an open boat in the 40-50 size bracket that allows you to cruise fast(ish), realistically you are better off aiming at something capable to keep you going in the low/mid 30s.
And you don't need SDs for that. Then again, with a Pershing 46 on shafts, which is a great boat and as PYB said is as good as her SDs version if not better, you don't get the rooster tail... :sneaky:
 
There is an extra maintenance issue of the ram seals .The up / down trim can be parked up , but the the steering are exposed and critters form an abrasive layer which destroys the ram seals .
Normally replaced every two seasons + the contaminated hydraulic oil needs flushing through .
You see a lot when in the yards with the rams off for work .
I had a mate with a SD boat and he learnt how to diy it to save costs and did them annually .

You might be able to scrap them up while doing the props , but by the time say 2 weeks have elapsed even though the blades seem pretty clean from using the boat in say August , warm water has already enhanced the abrasive critters to return .
Bit like your flap trim rams issues , but you can park when in the marina or at anchor and raise them up to hide the rams .

Not sure in the longer term if you as Chris H has done had a bit of a season ( Covid permitted ) parked it up and if there is a contamination the salt waters been “stewing “ for months and degrading the pump .Guess it depends on the hydraulic fluids corrosion resistance and how much % terms contamination it can still protect ? That’s another unknown waiting to bite .

Not sure what the protocol is ?
As said my mate did his annually did not wait for the inevitable.

So that moving from outdrives put me off and err d me towards straight shafts .In the 5 seasons with the Itama the stern gear
I have only replaced anodes as expected.

Another issue linking to MapishM s speed thing in a busy place like the SoF about 30 knots is as fast in terms of safety I would want to cruise as it’s just too taxing concentration wise , there’s just too much going on ahead to relax .
As MapisM M says up to say around 80 or 75 you pay crew to drive it and they sit with a helm + spotter .

As an anecdotal story we were crossing to Corsica at a eco 28 knots out of sight of what I thought was everything, land no other vessels in sight with 1-2 M waves bombing along mid way ish .
Guests sunbathing or napping at the back .
Sometimes nearer land Mrs Porto sits by me at the helm to spot .Not necessary out here ?
So I went down below for a comfort break and when I came back up a huge yellow meteo buoy slid by about 4-5 M off the port side .I never saw it ahead .I secretly learnt a lesson that day about speed .

Another thing in a big boys playing with toys thing the faster you go the faster it’s over , is that more enjoyable?
There’s a happy medium .
Around 30 knots works for me , with no unknown knowns in the yard .
 
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MapisM said:
Do you know what economy at speed really is? An oxymoron.

Don't be fooled by the general principle of surface transmission higher efficiency, because that is only true within a (relatively) narrow speed range.
Sure, if you always cruise north of 35 knots, or even better above 40, for any given size/weight of boat you are going to burn less with SDs compared to shafts - which is VERY different from calling that speed "economical", anyway!
But the thing is, how often do you think you can really do that, in real world?
That's one of the reasons why I said that SDs make more sense with bigger boats: it's more likely that you'll be capable to keep cruising at 40+ knots with a Magnum 80', than with anything else in the size bracket you are considering. Which is pretty much stating the obvious, of course.

The other point is, define speed. Leaving offshore racing aside, if you want to go fast, you are much better off with outdrives than with any SDs.
None of the boats mentioned can go as fast as my old Fountain 27 fever could, with her single outdrive and stock engine.
And she was just the baby of their range - all other twin engines models being MUCH faster, up to 3 digits and beyond.
Not to mention that M6 and M8 sterndrives, which are actually spinning surface props exactly as any SDs (and with the same rooster tail, if that's your thing), are even more efficient.
Just as an example, have a look at this video to have an idea of what REALLY fast outdrives powered boats can do.
Mind, that very same boat, a few years later, took off and killed her crew. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Another thing: maneuverability aside, which is mostly a matter of practice, and surely isn't anywhere as bad as a single sterndrive (no prize for guessing how I know!), there are other drawbacks of SDs.
You must be religious with maintenance (which can be expensive!), to start with.
And also in keeping props and hull clean, not only for performance reasons, but also because SDs are already hard on engines by design, and they can easily overload them at intermediate RPM range, whenever the boat struggles to get on the plane.
Which can and does happen more frequently with SDs boats, even if I guess this might sound counterintuitive.

Bottom line, IMHO if you want an open boat in the 40-50 size bracket that allows you to cruise fast(ish), realistically you are better off aiming at something capable to keep you going in the low/mid 30s.
And you don't need SDs for that. Then again, with a Pershing 46 on shafts, which is a great boat and as PYB said is as good as her SDs version if not better, you don't get the rooster tail... :sneaky:
Click to expand...

For sure, I would want an outerlimits SV43 with slightly lower tuned engines, maybe even diesels. However the practicality is not there. It's the right size, but it's a race boat

I guess the purpose of my question was really how fast can you get a moderately practical day cruiser to go. Without turbine engines at least :D

To be practical it seems it would really make more sense to either just have a vessel made for speed in good conditions, or one for cruising and comfort even if it's not perfect weather. Or both of course, but not in the same vessel at this size at least.

But still I like looking at boats, and SD yachts are nice to look at, used to browse boat catalogues as a child, especially on the island cottage :p Got some new boats to look at from this thread alone which is fantastic, along with the experiences of owners.

Portofino said:
There is an extra maintenance issue of the ram seals .The up / down trim can be parked up , but the the steering are exposed and critters form an abrasive layer which destroys the ram seals .
Normally replaced every two seasons + the contaminated hydraulic oil needs flushing through .
You see a lot when in the yards with the rams off for work .
I had a mate with a SD boat and he learnt how to diy it to save costs and did them annually .

You might be able to scrap them up while doing the props , but by the time say 2 weeks have elapsed even though the blades seem pretty clean from using the boat in say August , warm water has already enhanced the abrasive critters to return .
Bit like your flap trim rams issues , but you can park when in the marina or at anchor and raise them up to hide the rams .

Not sure in the longer term if you as Chris H has done had a bit of a season ( Covid permitted ) parked it up and if there is a contamination the salt waters been “stewing “ for months and degrading the pump .Guess it depends on the hydraulic fluids corrosion resistance and how much % terms contamination it can still protect ? That’s another unknown waiting to bite .

Not sure what the protocol is ?
As said my mate did his annually did not wait for the inevitable.

So that moving from outdrives put me off and err d me towards straight shafts .In the 5 seasons with the Itama the stern gear
I have only replaced anodes as expected.

Another issue linking to MapishM s speed thing in a busy place like the SoF about 30 knots is as fast in terms of safety I would want to cruise as it’s just too taxing concentration wise , there’s just too much going on ahead to relax .
As MapisM M says up to say around 80 or 75 you pay crew to drive it and they sit with a helm + spotter .

As an anecdotal story we were crossing to Corsica at a eco 28 knots out of sight of what I thought was everything, land no other vessels in sight with 1-2 M waves bombing along mid way ish .
Guests sunbathing or napping at the back .
Sometimes nearer land Mrs Porto sits by me at the helm to spot .Not necessary out here ?
So I went down below for a comfort break and when I came back up a huge yellow meteo buoy slid by about 4-5 M off the port side .I never saw it ahead .I secretly learnt a lesson that day about speed .

Another thing in a big boys playing with toys thing the faster you go the faster it’s over , is that more enjoyable?
There’s a happy medium .
Around 30 knots works for me , with no unknown knowns in the yard .
Click to expand...

I do see your point, I don't even mind occasionally pottering on at 6 knots when it's a nice evening and just out for a drive, not going to an island or anything.

When talking about a "daily" boat, I do appreciate less maintenance. No part is the best part. Can't fail if you don't have it.


Loving all your comments and experiences
 
With speed to work you need the right hull form .Deadrise and weight distribution come into play .
Plus as I said 3 up front looking out and breezy for hair do‘s .No hats ever last :)
 
Portofino said:
There is an extra maintenance issue of the ram seals .The up / down trim can be parked up , but the the steering are exposed and critters form an abrasive layer which destroys the ram seals .
Normally replaced every two seasons + the contaminated hydraulic oil needs flushing through .
You see a lot when in the yards with the rams off for work .
I had a mate with a SD boat and he learnt how to diy it to save costs and did them annually .

You might be able to scrap them up while doing the props , but by the time say 2 weeks have elapsed even though the blades seem pretty clean from using the boat in say August , warm water has already enhanced the abrasive critters to return .
Bit like your flap trim rams issues , but you can park when in the marina or at anchor and raise them up to hide the rams .
Click to expand...

We do 1 week hard to port, one week hard to starboard. Every week, without fail.
 
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