32ft family cruiser co32 or B First 31.7?

[bedouin]

One is foresail size and winches. You are likely to be the principal helm, leaving your wife and children to carry out many of the other activities. An older sail configuration might have a 150% genoa, which can be extremely difficult to wind in when sailing is at its best. You might consider a boat that carries more of its sail area in the main, and perhaps even a self-tacking jib.

My boat has the same rig set-up - I presume it is some perversion forced on designers by the rating rules at the time.

IMHO when sailing with the family the 150% is a waste of time - there are very few conditions in which it really makes any sense as a sail - especially if it is of the roller-furling variety.

I have recently swapped to using the #3 Genoa as my principle foresail - that is about 110% and makes the boat much easier to handle. The small main also can actually be an advantage, you don't really need to consider reefing until you have 22-25 kts over the deck, which will be very rare with the family on board and if you are feeling relaxed you can go a lot of places with just the Genoa

 

[Robin]

My boat has the same rig set-up - I presume it is some perversion forced on designers by the rating rules at the time.

IMHO when sailing with the family the 150% is a waste of time - there are very few conditions in which it really makes any sense as a sail - especially if it is of the roller-furling variety.

I have recently swapped to using the #3 Genoa as my principle foresail - that is about 110% and makes the boat much easier to handle. The small main also can actually be an advantage, you don't really need to consider reefing until you have 22-25 kts over the deck, which will be very rare with the family on board and if you are feeling relaxed you can go a lot of places with just the Genoa

No roller genoa will be sized at 150% I think and most will be nearer 130% anyway. When we had a Liz 30 with hanked on sails yes we had a 150% genoa, but it was for light wind stuff only, trying to carry it with too much wind was a recipe for a wrecked sail, not torn but well stretched out of shape, and generally they came with a windspeed limit from the sailmaker! We used a 150% frequently on the Liz but in winds where the (big) winches anyway were not overloaded, in a bit more wind we changed to a full hoist No.2 genoa which stayed up until the 2nd main reef was not enough, then the No3 went on. Once we switched to a W33 the headsails were too big to be fighting on the foredeck and we went roller, with a 130% genoa.

Back to OP, the Co32 has to be the prettiest of boats, but it was actually no bigger than our then Elizabethan 30 which had the same layout below and I think was a better sailer anyway. I agree with others that it has that rufty tufty 'Morgan' appeal but for comfortable sailing and especially with a family there are much better choices to be had these days.

 

[bedouin]

No roller genoa will be sized at 150% I think and most will be nearer 130% anyway. When we had a Liz 30 with hanked on sails yes we had a 150% genoa, but it was for light wind stuff only, trying to carry it with too much wind was a recipe for a wrecked sail, not torn but well stretched out of shape, and generally they came with a windspeed limit from the sailmaker! We used a 150% frequently on the Liz but in winds where the (big) winches anyway were not overloaded, in a bit more wind we changed to a full hoist No.2 genoa which stayed up until the 2nd main reef was not enough, then the No3 went on. Once we switched to a W33 the headsails were too big to be fighting on the foredeck and we went roller, with a 130% genoa.

While I hesitate to contradict you - my #1 roller genoa(s) are definitely 150% - and I believe the CO32 as standard has the same. There is no reason why a roller sail needs to be smaller than the hanked on equivalent (except for probably losing a few inches of luff length).

However I think you are alluding to the inherent contradiction of the 150% roller genoa - if it is heavy enough to stand use partly furled in say F4-5 then it is too heavy to set well when fully out in F1-2

Soon after buying the boat I bought a new #2 genoa - that is nearer 130-135% and in theory a better size. However that proved to be very unsatisfactory as because of the rig geometry I lost 5-10 degrees of pointing (I can't sheet it as tight because of the spreaders). In comparison a #3 (say 110%) is small enough that it doesn't hit the spreaders and so I can point as high as with the #1.

NB I also don't agree that having a roller furler means that you are restricted to a single sail. I have a choice of 4 different sails (although I usually only carry 2 at a time) and choose the one likely to be most appropriate for the weather forecast for the day.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

My boat has the same rig set-up - I presume it is some perversion forced on designers by the rating rules at the time.

IMHO when sailing with the family the 150% is a waste of time - there are very few conditions in which it really makes any sense as a sail - especially if it is of the roller-furling variety.

I have recently swapped to using the #3 Genoa as my principle foresail - that is about 110% and makes the boat much easier to handle. The small main also can actually be an advantage, you don't really need to consider reefing until you have 22-25 kts over the deck, which will be very rare with the family on board and if you are feeling relaxed you can go a lot of places with just the Genoa

Totally agree. And if the clew is cut high you can see where you are going!

 

[doug748]

Back to OP, the Co32 has to be the prettiest of boats, but it was actually no bigger than our then Elizabethan 30

Elizabethan 30 is the same size as a Contessa 32. I see.

 

[vyv_cox]

No roller genoa will be sized at 150% I think and most will be nearer 130% anyway.

The standard foresail on a Sadler 34 is 150%. Mine was supplied by Hood 10 years ago, their invoice says 150% and I have recently had this confirmed by them. Similar boats, of which the Contessa 32 is undoubtedly one, may well have similar-sized foresails.

Incidentally, Hood have advised me that going to 130% would almost certainly result in a significant loss of performance. This is a problem with yachts of this era, hence my post. By contrast, a Westerly Fulmar had a fractional rig and a much more mainsail-oriented bias but the smaller genoa can still be difficult for ladies to sheet home in a nice breeze.

 

[Georgio]

From my experience (and that of other Co32 owners) a 135% roller genoa is a good comprimise, you lose out a little (bit not much) in light airs but gain when you don't have to roll up the genoa in medium wind.

In reality if there is sub 5kts of breeze the donk would probably be on anyway...

 

[TiggerToo]

I think you are all missing something fairly vital, your wife is a woman, therefore she will have a mind of her own, Chrissie

now that is a sexist remark

 

[Robin]

Size is not everything!

A roller genoa might be a labelled nominal 150% one but probably to differentiate it from a deliberately smaller heavy weather one. The 150% refers to the 'J' measurement so 1.5 x this, which is a big overlap past the mast. In practice a proper 150% No1 headsail is full height and deck sweeping and would be a completely useless sail on a roller system. Simply cutting the luff to fit between the top swivel bearing and the bottom roller drum alone would reduce the area quite a lot, even if the 'J' measurement was kept the same with a much higher clew to aid the rolling process. As Georgio says 135% +/- is a very good compromise and pretty well what most sailmakers will provide IMO.

As for size comparisons, LOA is a poor tool to use alone. The Liz 30 is the same internal dimensions as a Co32, same LWL, just shorter overhanging ends that contribute zilch to internal space and the same to performance because in this case the extra overhang of the Co32 over the Liz doesn't get immersed when heeled and increase the LWL. The Sadler 32 is a good example from the same designer, loads more room than a Co32, then move up to a Westerly 33, on paper just one foot 'bigger' than a Co32 but in reality probably double the 'size' and pretty well double the weight.

 

[bedouin]

A roller genoa might be a labelled nominal 150% one but probably to differentiate it from a deliberately smaller heavy weather one. The 150% refers to the 'J' measurement so 1.5 x this,.

150% of J is 150% of J - there is nothing nominal about that. And J is fixed for the boat - not dependent on whether it is rolling or hanked on. And for the record, I have measured it (for IRC rating) and it is 150%

A #1 does not have to be deck-sweeping - the area is the same however it is cut. You would not normally put a deck-sweeping on a roller furler (a) because it would loose shape very badly as it furled and (b) you would need to move the genoa cars too much.

As mentioned - on my boat the 135% is a very bad compromise as it can't be sheeted hard.

I'd like to know how the CO32 gets round that problem - perhaps their sheeting position is sufficiently different that it is not an issue (my genoa track is on the toerail whereas IIRC the CO32 is a little inside)

 

[Robin]

150% of J is 150% of J - there is nothing nominal about that. And J is fixed for the boat - not dependent on whether it is rolling or hanked on. And for the record, I have measured it (for IRC rating) and it is 150%

A #1 does not have to be deck-sweeping - the area is the same however it is cut. You would not normally put a deck-sweeping on a roller furler (a) because it would loose shape very badly as it furled and (b) you would need to move the genoa cars too much.

As mentioned - on my boat the 135% is a very bad compromise as it can't be sheeted hard.

I'd like to know how the CO32 gets round that problem - perhaps their sheeting position is sufficiently different that it is not an issue (my genoa track is on the toerail whereas IIRC the CO32 is a little inside)

The area is only the same (irrespective of the clew height and I understand 'J' is fixed) if the luff length is the same as well, which it isn't if you have to allow for a foot clearance at the top for room for the swivel and proper halyard lead for a roller and maybe 2ft at the bottom to fit in an above deck reefing drum. Certainly a deck sweeper bottom doesn't effect the measured area and certainly makes it useless for rolling.

Maybe the sheeting position on your track is why the 150% overlap is chosen so that the shrouds sit in the chord of the sail? That is a very good reason for not buying off the peg sails even though all sailmakers have the standard measurements, because a personal visit to measure up would highlight the sheeting problem. When we had a full suit made for the Liz, had they been made to the IOR Certificate we would have had a serious problem since the genoa halyard exited 6" below the forestay attachment and measurement point. The sails were made so that all sheeted correctly within the genoa track lengths as fitted, but IIRC (it was 25 years ago!) the No3 sheeted inside the caps and the No1 and No2 outside.

 

[doug748]

As for size comparisons, LOA is a poor tool to use alone. The Liz 30 is the same internal dimensions as a Co32, same LWL, just shorter overhanging ends that contribute zilch to internal space and the same to performance because in this case the extra overhang of the Co32 over the Liz doesn't get immersed when heeled and increase the LWL.

In one sense I agree with you, in that there a no extra facilities in the Liz, the CO32, the Sadler or (for that matter) a Rustler 36. They all just get bigger and offer more space in certain directions.
However to say the Liz 30 is the same internal size as the Contessa is just an error of fact. It is wrong. Fortunately we can see the two boats for comparison here:
http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives.htm

 

[narcer]

SHE 33

Refering back to the origonal post I would just say don´t get caught up in the CO 32 market hype of being the "most seaworthy" 32 footer around from that year with the best performance ! Having said that I´m definitely of the CO 32 school of thought, but there are so many excellent boats around like a CO 32 only better !

For sure it´s a great boat and you can´t do much wrong if you buy one. However, the build quality is not the best and the fit out is very standard. The ones you will find advertised for 25K - 30K + are not straight from the mould. They are well used and sad on the inside. However their hype and rep demand a high asking price for a standard piece of kit...30 yr old kit.

On the other side my neighbour (in the club) has a First 31.7 which I´ve raced with him and his son. All I can say is I know wooden boats move a lot going to windward...but this one moves more ! It´s creakin and groaning all the way. Last time we were out in about 20 knts I noticed more than ever the movement of this boat and later saw the stbd bulkhead was popped out and sitting outside of it´s "Sikaflex" seal. Maybe it´s all part of the design !

You may however like to consider something of real quality where your family would be safe and comfortable for eg She 33. These are fitted out far superior to a CO32 and also sail much better all round. Other eg´s that spring to mind would be a Rival 32/ 34 prof fitted out, Albin Ballad 31, Nic 32 (more space) modern version. Also the above mentioned Moody 31, Westerly´s, Sadler 32 (fantastic sailboats) etc are worth a look too.

 

[bedouin]

The area is only the same (irrespective of the clew height and I understand 'J' is fixed) if the luff length is the same as well, which it isn't if you have to allow for a foot clearance at the top for room for the swivel and proper halyard lead for a roller and maybe 2ft at the bottom to fit in an above deck reefing drum. Certainly a deck sweeper bottom doesn't effect the measured area and certainly makes it useless for rolling.

Yes - as I said In fact the loss of J on mine is about 18"

Maybe the sheeting position on your track is why the 150% overlap is chosen so that the shrouds sit in the chord of the sail?

The other way round perhaps - I am pretty sure that 150% was chosen because at the time it was free sail area in rating terms and the rest of the boat designed round that (including for example the tracks getting closer together as you go after - giving a close sheeting angle for the sails). But that is not a sheeting problem - it is part of the compromise on choosing the cut of sails.

Since the basic geometry of the Co32 and the Centurion32 is virtually identical (and not that different from the Liz) I am interested to know how the Co32 owners get round the problem - or whether they just live with it

 

[Georgio]

As mentioned - on my boat the 135% is a very bad compromise as it can't be sheeted hard.

I'd like to know how the CO32 gets round that problem - perhaps their sheeting position is sufficiently different that it is not an issue (my genoa track is on the toerail whereas IIRC the CO32 is a little inside)

The genoa track is on the deck some inches inboard of the toerail. The boat was measured for the sail and the sailmaker (Sanders) does know Co32s well.

 

[bedouin]

The genoa track is on the deck some inches inboard of the toerail. The boat was measured for the sail and the sailmaker (Sanders) does know Co32s well.

Peter Sanders also made my #2 - and I went to him largely on the recommendation of Co32 and Albin owners.

When you are hard on the wind where are the ends of the spreaders in relation to the sail? While you sheet a few inches further inboard I don't see that it ought to make that much difference.

 

[ex-Gladys]

I'm not going to get into the Co/Benny argument, but make a more general observation about cruising boats. My boat has an ugly added on wheelhouse, whchi when I bought I fully expected to get rid of.... However... The practicalities of only needing to wear oilies once in the last two years, being able to be either in or out of the sun/wind/rain/sleet/snow has convinced methat the practicalities vastly out weigh the looks... And I come from a rampant dinghy racing background.

The other thing, how often do we plug away up wind these days? just watch boats, and a lot motor or motor sail.... There's a lot to be said for sailing in comfort... as said earlier in the thread.... I'm a convert

 

[Robin]

In one sense I agree with you, in that there a no extra facilities in the Liz, the CO32, the Sadler or (for that matter) a Rustler 36. They all just get bigger and offer more space in certain directions.
However to say the Liz 30 is the same internal size as the Contessa is just an error of fact. It is wrong. Fortunately we can see the two boats for comparison here:
http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives.htm

Look again please in conjunction with what I said. The waterline length (a better comparison by far than overall length) of both the Liz and the Co32 is the same at 24ft. That is the dimension that the interior layout has to fit within, although I concede that the Co32 is a whole 3" wider at is widest point. If you want to say the stern locker can carry an extra fender OK, no dispute, but the living space is the same.

Interesting the quote from a Sailing Today comparison:-

In 2000, 'Sailing Today' magazine voted the Elizabethan 30 "secondhand boat of the year" - the Contessa 32 taking second place. The same article described the test boat in a Force 5 to 6 as "fast, beautifully balanced and close-winded"

 

[Georgio]

Peter Sanders also made my #2 - and I went to him largely on the recommendation of Co32 and Albin owners.

When you are hard on the wind where are the ends of the spreaders in relation to the sail? While you sheet a few inches further inboard I don't see that it ought to make that much difference.

When beating hard on the wind the genoa is set so that it is roughly 1.5 - 2" off the spreader tip with the sheet block positioned such that the tell-tails lift together when luffing. If blowing hard, rather than reef I somtimes put the lead position a little further aft to allow the top of the genoa some more twist spilling some wind, alternativly I feather up into the wind in the gusts.

Somtimes you can't beat a good beat into a stong wind, especially if you have somone good on the mainsail.

 

[doug748]

...... The waterline length (a better comparison by far than overall length) of both the Liz and the Co32 is the same at 24ft. That is the dimension that the interior layout has to fit within,

This may be your main problem, for there is no doubt the interior layout has to fit inside the hull. It matters little what the waterline plane is
The second error is not looking at the snaps, here is the 30 footer:

http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/elizabethan-30/elizabethan-30.htm

Note the heads with 6in less width than the Contessa. Note the Trotter boxes, another foot there......it all starts to add up towards....32 foot.
Not quite though, an extra 6in in the saloon and with a longer hull you can carry maximum beam further.... and hello, the Contessa has a dinette double.