22-footer, thirty years old. Reduced to £10,000. Bargain.

[NUTMEG]

I'm tempted to think that's because they - motor sailers - appeal to people who don't know any better - maybe cash rich retired folk - as ' the best of both worlds ' while in reality they often combine the worst of both - sail like a mobo and motor like a sailboat.

I suppose on paper, as long as one hasn't actually seen the real thing, the Macgregor 26 might seem wonderful; in reality even novice friends take one look at the one near my mooring and say ' Christ that thing's ugly ! ' - and unlike all the proper boats around, it skates all over the place like a drunk driving a tea trolley on an ice rink - a good sailing boat especially should work in harmony with nature - some motor sailers try to take it on in a bar room brawl and wonder why they come a poor second...

Seajet, I think you miss the point of UK based motorsailers. In a word, it's Weather.

All boats are a compromise, even the A22. (Tried standing up in it lately?). The reason for a motorsailer is that it remains in commission all year around. Sure, Rhoda Rose is not a great sailing boat when compared to out and out sailers, but she gets there, the weather may close in, it may get dark and cold but that is not an issue with the heater on, the wipers working etc etc.

Do not misunderstand me, I have come very close to selling her for an almost flush decked gaffer, but to write off motorsailers as you do says more about your understanding of the reasoning behind them then it does of the boats and the owners you so glibly write off and, to be honest, makes you sound like a pillock, which I am sure you are not.

Steve

 

[DownWest]

I'm tempted to think that's because they - motor sailers - appeal to people who don't know any better - maybe cash rich retired folk - as ' the best of both worlds ' while in reality they often combine the worst of both - sail like a mobo and motor like a sailboat.QUOTE]

Seajet, you seem to have crossed the line a bit there. Motor sailers have always had a nich, because they offer better accomodation and more protected sailing, at the cost of some some windward performance. Colvic made a few that have keen followers and the boat in question has many keen owners....which might translate into higher prices?

Disclaimer: The old man had a hand in the design. But it was to Cox's guidlines, not what he would have produced with a free hand.

Edit: Slow typer, so missed theb last couple of posts..

 

[rgarside]

I think the boat was intended to appeal to the gourmet sailer market - it's not many boats that have a broiler fitted.

 

[NUTMEG]

I think the boat was intended to appeal to the gourmet sailer market - it's not many boats that have a broiler fitted.

There is a joke there somewhere but I can not quite put my finger on it.

 

[Seajet]

I completely understand the appeal of motorsailers, and I am in no way ashamed to admit I'll slap the engine on if weather doesn't suit and running to a schedule - and my 2 stroke, while doing its job well, is by no means as pleasant to live with as a diesel inboard ! - Until that inboard goes wrong, but that's another story.

No way am I writing off motorsailers, sometimes I have even fancied being inside a wheelhouse with a mug of tea; but one has to realise the limitations- very poor visibility if below, and maybe over the top if in the cockpit, for a start.

Linked steerage systems make for heavy handling.

Poor windward performance as most designers of motorsailers sadly go for reduced draught as well, putting them firmly in the 1 metre deep surface drift.

The newer - large and very expensive - Southerlys look good, but when I saw the underwater shape I was appalled.

May I humbly suggest the best motorsailer is a boat designed to sail, then modified a bit; after all not many boats were designed with sprayhoods in mind, I often think ' if that was fibreglass, people would say ' what a shocking high windage tub ' but for some reason it's OK if it's canvas !

I think the real problem with the majority of motorsailers is that they also go for shallow keels, compounding the trouble presenting the windage going to windward.

The Evasion 32 looked to me like it might be sleek enough to get over this, but I have seen rather negative reviews; so what's a sleek, relatively deep draughted - or lift keel - motorsailer under 35' then ?

Edit; the Westerly Vulcan seemed a good idea but had very ugly windows, a shame as it's probably a handy boat ?

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Here is my little 21 ft motor sailor, its a Seafairer 21. It has approx. 190 sq ft of sails made by Crusader, a 40HP Ford diesel. Autopilot, Electric windlass.

Used in the Clyde so nice to have wheelhouse and big engine to get home in a blow, sails are great for steadying in a beam sea.

Built or should I say rebuilt by yours truly.

 

[jac]

I completely understand the appeal of motorsailers, and I am in no way ashamed to admit I'll slap the engine on if weather doesn't suit and running to a schedule - and my 2 stroke, while doing its job well, is by no means as pleasant to live with as a diesel inboard ! - Until that inboard goes wrong, but that's another story.

No way am I writing off motorsailers, sometimes I have even fancied being inside a wheelhouse with a mug of tea; but one has to realise the limitations- very poor visibility if below, and maybe over the top if in the cockpit, for a start.

Linked steerage systems make for heavy handling.

Poor windward performance as most designers of motorsailers sadly go for reduced draught as well, putting them firmly in the 1 metre deep surface drift.

The newer - large and very expensive - Southerlys look good, but when I saw the underwater shape I was appalled.

May I humbly suggest the best motorsailer is a boat designed to sail, then modified a bit; after all not many boats were designed with sprayhoods in mind, I often think ' if that was fibreglass, people would say ' what a shocking high windage tub ' but for some reason it's OK if it's canvas !

I think the real problem with the majority of motorsailers is that they also go for shallow keels, compounding the trouble presenting the windage going to windward.

The Evasion 32 looked to me like it might be sleek enough to get over this, but I have seen rather negative reviews; so what's a sleek, relatively deep draughted - or lift keel - motorsailer under 35' then ?

Edit; the Westerly Vulcan seemed a good idea but had very ugly windows, a shame as it's probably a handy boat ?

Top post Andy.

I've always thought that a moderately heavy boat, good high aspect rig & keel, that could sail properly would sail well.

 

[Tammany]

Without the sails the standard 'fishing' version of this boat in this condition is £8-9000 so price isn't too far off. Fishing type boats always fetch a high price as they are the most sought after.

 

[Hydrozoan]

I seem to remember an article (PBO? David Harding?) pointing out that the Cox Master Mariner tended to fetch high prices as they were relatively rare and sought after.

 

[rotrax]

Seajet-you are free to have your opinions on Motorsailers-it would be a poor world if we all aspired to or liked the same thing.

This year First Mate and I have done almost 1500NM in our new Motorsailer Jarrow Lily. She is going into winter quarters at the Hayling Yacht Co- perhaps you would like to come and have a look. She should be there on the 15th November on. I grant she is not the prettiest boat, and does have lots of windage as the pilothouse is really huge. We can easily seat 7 around the table-2 more if we had a couple of high folding stools.

We chose her for two very good reasons-we both have physical problems that mean climbing on and off the freeboard of an aft cockpit yacht hurts-she has a swim platform accessed from the pilothouse that means I can step off with the mooring lines and First Mate can get on and off without her wincing with pain from her tweaky hip. The other reason is comfort. It has side by seating at the helm with very nice swiveling pilot seats and we have only used our oilies once this year, mooring in Chichester in the pi$$ing rain. She was expensive but so far is proving to be a success. We expect to drop a packet when we cant sail her anymore but you cant take it with you. The last of our sailing will be in relative comfort. We shall spend at least 4 months each year living aboard-perhaps 5-so suitability for that is more important than aesetics or sailing performance.

Compared to an aft cockpit yacht it is a revelation for a couple of retirees. We are fairly new to sailing and are indifferent to fast sailing-comfort and ease of handling is more important.

Surprisingly, she sails much better than we hoped, especially with the wind on the beam or aft. When the wind wont serve the engine will push her along at 9KTS in flat water.

So you see, all motor sailers dont sail like a motor boat and motor like a sailboat-some are quite good.

And they keep one dry and warm.

I wish she went astern better though-that is a bit of a lottery..........................

 

[mikenfi]

Could get a sabre fin keel for £3000 on their owners site and a cockpit enclousure for £1400. You can use that all year round. I'd be happy in a blow in our!!! Got caught in 3.5m swell, 5-6. Was a little bumpy. But she handled it well!!!

 

[Otter]

Seajet-you are free to have your opinions on Motorsailers-it would be a poor world if we all aspired to or liked the...

Now don't you go criticising Seajet, he's worth his weight in gold. Many of us on here have started a thread in the vain hope that we can find someone to give a knowledgable and intelligent appraisal of a potential boat. What we've learnt is that we don't actually need facts, empirical evidence or experience, we just need Seajet, his ability to definitively appraise any vessel without having sailed it - or even set foot on it - saves all that bother. He always knows some bloke who once had an uncle who may - or may not - have owned one and who can testify that:

A. They don't go to windward
B. They have cramped accommodation
C. They sink far too easily

So leave Seajet alone, he doesn't need facts or experience in order to be right and we need him to tell us what to think.

 

[mikenfi]

Paw. Catty here isn't it... Arm chair warriors I feel!!

 

[rotrax]

Now don't you go criticising Seajet, he's worth his weight in gold. Many of us on here have started a thread in the vain hope that we can find someone to give a knowledgable and intelligent appraisal of a potential boat. What we've learnt is that we don't actually need facts, empirical evidence or experience, we just need Seajet, his ability to definitively appraise any vessel without having sailed it - or even set foot on it - saves all that bother. He always knows some bloke who once had an uncle who may - or may not - have owned one and who can testify that:

A. They don't go to windward
B. They have cramped accommodation
C. They sink far too easily

So leave Seajet alone, he doesn't need facts or experience in order to be right and we need him to tell us what to think.

No critisism intended, just a little education.

Its just that comparing a proper Motorsailer with a deep keel aft cockpit yacht is like comparing am MGB with a Morris Oxford.

Built for different things, but EITHER quite good at what they were built for.

Direct comparison is a no no IMHO...........................

 

[oldgit]

" Essex Boatyards " are very good outfit to deal with at all levels of boat size and price.
Bit off putting when a buyer at an adjacent desk is discussing the purchase of a boat in the yard with 900K sticker on it.
They will not faint in horror or forcibly eject you from the first floor office because of any low offer.They have seen it all. Suspect that providing they think you are serious buyer and want to sort something out,they may well ask you to pop across to the cafe on the sea wall while they chew it over.
They certainly suprised me when they accepted my offer on boat.
They got some cash,I got boat,simply because I told them how much I wanted to pay.

 

[Seajet]

Now don't you go criticising Seajet, he's worth his weight in gold. Many of us on here have started a thread in the vain hope that we can find someone to give a knowledgable and intelligent appraisal of a potential boat. What we've learnt is that we don't actually need facts, empirical evidence or experience, we just need Seajet, his ability to definitively appraise any vessel without having sailed it - or even set foot on it - saves all that bother. He always knows some bloke who once had an uncle who may - or may not - have owned one and who can testify that:

A. They don't go to windward
B. They have cramped accommodation
C. They sink far too easily

So leave Seajet alone, he doesn't need facts or experience in order to be right and we need him to tell us what to think.

Come to that, while experience and design are obviously not your strong points,

B, I never said accomodation on motorsailers is cramped as a generality

C, Never mentioned anything about sinking.

I have plenty of facts and experience or I wouldn't post on here, Ta.

While it might be awkward with relation to your current boat, I suggest you think about having a decent deep keel design on a motorsailer; as I mentioned I thought the Konsort based Vulcan was a good idea badly presented ?

 

[Greenheart]

They surprised me when they accepted my offer. They got some cash, I got the boat, simply because I told them how much I wanted to pay.

Good advice, thanks. But this wasn't about making offers, or reluctance to - I was only lamenting the infrequency of finding this style of boat for sale - and concluding that a rare boat which is fun to be aboard in bad weather, must hold its value in the British climate.

...not many boats were designed with sprayhoods in mind. I often think, if that was fibreglass, people would say 'what a shocking high windage tub', but for some reason it's OK if it's canvas!

Hmm, as someone who rather likes boats with hard wheel-shelters, I'm surprised by the great popularity of semi-transparent flappy windscreens, when a majority of their owners would never tolerate a tough clear glass screen as a rigid, permanent feature.

...the point of UK based motorsailers. In a word, it's Weather. The reason for a motorsailer is that it remains in commission all year around.

Exactly why I want one. And the reason I've never understood why they constitute such a small a proportion of the UK yacht market.

I went to the club early today...it was too cold, damp & breezy to sail the dinghy. But I'd have enjoyed an idle cruise at a sheltered helm. Two hours later, bright sun and no wind...still wouldn't have been any good in the dinghy, but bliss in a small motor-sailer.

The old Osprey gives me all the sailing satisfaction I want, when it's the kind of weather I like to be outdoors. When it's not, I'd like the option to go indoors, without ceasing sailing. Hardly any sailing boats are designed to permit that.

I doubt I'll ever understand why most UK sailors spend tens of thousands on boats with nice heated cabins, whose design nevertheless prevents them wanting to spend any time aboard for six months of each year. It doesn't matter, just seems barmy to me. :apathy:

 

[Seajet]

Dan,

a part answer may be the toughened glass screen found on Hallberg Rasseys and Naijads, both from a distintcly cold area - and seem sensible to me as long as they have wipers etc - the earleir Harrier jets had a windscreen wiper - the later ones used a blown hot air system which proved better, I imagine this could be worked into a yacht, at least while the engine is running.

At 5'9" I'm stuck right in the middle on my chum's Centaur with sprayhood; from the cockpit I can see the square root of bugger-all through the newish but crinkly plastic windows, and have to stand on the seats to see over the thing - not ideal in heavy weather when I or other crew will inevitably say ' soddit ! ' and hunch inside the sprayhood for shelter.

I found Eberspacher heaters very noisy, quite ineffective and a big current draw at aound 4 amp/hours.

Along with sliding along icy pontoons - only saved by having a berthing line in my hand - and the long cold nights - I decided they can stuff winter sailing, best reserved for dinghy racing with a rescue boat and mulled wine handy.

 

[FWB]

Dan, you don't need a motorsailer in order sail year round. My gaffer has no sprayhood and a large open cockpit. It does have a heater which can be on when sailing. You just need the right clothes and a warm cabin to dangle your legs into on a really cold day

 

[Seajet]

FWB,

if, going by your avatar, location and callsign, you have a Falmouth Working Boat - I take my hat off to you Sir, one of the best sailing experiences of my life was crewing on I think # 29 ' Iris Elizabeth ' ? ( ? as all records were destroyed in a bitter 1993 divorce ) .

" Pass another pastie and beer, and put another foresail up " - " they ( race Committee ) won't have three jibs up Cap'n " - " Put the bugger up anyway ! "