2035 ban on petrol/diesel cars and the implications to boating?

thejonesey

thejonesey

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Ban on petrol and diesel car sales brought forward

Given the direction of travel with the car industry (excuse the pun) I wondered whether people were worried about their boats and specifically:
1. Value in the future;
2. Availability of petrol/diesel;

I love boating but are we about to see a change that will require us to swap to all electric (technology permitting) or be left with a luxury asset that we cannot use and cannot sell? Or am I worrying to much?

I know 2035 is still 15 years away but the market will adapt before that ban, if that is indeed what happens...
 
There is a period of at least 15 years post ban where it is accepted that petrol/diesel cars will continue to run. Therefore fuel will obviously be available for these vehicles, and our boats, the question is how much it will cost.

Won't affect me. I'll (hopefully) be long dead by then.
 
This subject was raised some time ago on the Thames forum.
It has been suggested that when this does happen the non tidal Thames navigation could well be first to have some sort of legislation in place regards air quality and pollution control.
Suspect that very few river users, other than the motorboaters will crying in their beer about this, some would even welcome it.
It cannot be to much of challenge for smaller craft, even narrowboats who rarely travel long distances, to either have emmissions kit fitted,or go electric if the infrastructure was in place.
Offshore craft will be different kettle of fish.
All the UK builders seem to have done precious little, with their constant pandering to their customers addiction for more powerful, thirstier and always faster boats, to anticipate this development.
Be interesting if it will be no longer possible to even build this sort of boat here in UK,.
Build in China perhaps. ?
 
A couple of not so serious thoughts...
10 Years ago .. Diesel was the answer to “climate change answers” – that turned out well!!
Who’s to say that the yet to be invented next level, fuel / energy cells won’t be just as polluting. After all they have to deep mine battery metals.
Alternately ...we may have to look at Formula E technology to power the boats.
Or ....give up and go back to rag and sticks....
 
Refueler said:
I don't see farmers ploughing fields with electric tractors !!!

Ok - the red diesel will likely be discontinued in near future ... but diesel will still be around.
Click to expand...


Not yet perhaps but the all electric farm tractor may not be so far away as you think

 
I suspect when whole life is taken into account electric vehicles are no less polluting than diesel or petrol vehicles.
Air quality in cities may however see aan improvement. However I dont live or work in a city so that makes no difference to me.
.
When there are all electric cars will petrol and diesel become a cheap bi- product as they probably were when internal combustion engines became so popular ....before my time.
 
Too early to be worrying about it IMHO.

Politicians have decided that fossil fuels will be phased out for cars in fifteen years but as has been alluded to, I doubt very much that the proposal is supported by evidence and a holistic view, No doubt that things have to change because of climate change but we need to get past political rhetoric and look at real world options and appropriate compromises based upon facts. I suspect (but don’t know because the research hasn’t been done) that pleasure boating contributes relatively little to carbon emissions and it may be that boating holidays are a better option than flying to Spain. Or maybe not. The point is that we need a plan that will do what is required without returning us to the dark ages if at all possible.

Having said all that I am not optimistic given the quality of our current political class...:( but we are planning to change boats and another mobo is most likely :)
 
The point is this. We motorboaters haven’t got a leg to stand on. Some green willy waver in power is going to cotton on to the fact that we are driving around in boats guzzling diesel or petrol often at a rate of 1 mpg or less and often in areas with delicate eco systems purely in the pursuit of pleasure and they’re going to ask why it is allowed. And we aren’t going to have an answer. Our days are numbered unless the industry finds a lot cleaner and more efficient way of powering boats
 
I've given this some thought. As my green lumps are based on horse power, the pic below shows the solution. The only issues being needing a constant towpath on the rivers and sea, and room for the 960 horses that are required to give my usual 22 knot crusing speed when at sea. :giggle:

barge_workinghorses_kennet_valley_freddie_04.07.jpg
 
Deleted User said:
Our days are numbered unless the industry finds a lot cleaner and more efficient way of powering boats
Click to expand...
The solution is already with us. You will have to get used to a substantially taller and slower boat though. Other than that, not too many disadvantages.
 
VicS said:
Not yet perhaps but the all electric farm tractor may not be so far away as you think

Click to expand...
Didn't say how long it would run for before recharging unless I missed something. I do believe that some farmers will work 24 hours to get a crop in before rain, so how many electric tractors will he required for that use.
Regarding boats, I can motor for over 24 hours before refuelling. I would hate to think the size of the battery bank for that on my boat, and then how do I recharge it seeing that I can pop into a marina and refuel in 20 minutes and then go and anchor ? I suspect that another or power system will have to be used.
 
Martyn G said

I suspect when whole life is taken into account electric vehicles are no less polluting than diesel or petrol vehicles.
Air quality in cities may however see aan improvement. However I dont live or work in a city so that makes no difference to me.
.
When there are all electric cars will petrol and diesel become a cheap bi- product as they probably were when internal combustion engines became so popular ....before my time.

Electric vehicles are the most polluting vehicles of all vehicles and diesel 4X4's are the least polluting on the total life cycle and only one survey has been undertaken worldwide due to its complexity and cost, this is why Governments subtly changed their wording from "vehicle emissions" to "tailpipe emissions" and if we look at RDE 2 it shows that diesel engines are the least polluting of all vehicle engines, but agendas are at play here.

Moresparks said

A couple of not so serious thoughts...
10 Years ago .. Diesel was the answer to “climate change answers” – that turned out well!!
Who’s to say that the yet to be invented next level, fuel / energy cells won’t be just as polluting. After all they have to deep mine battery metals.
Alternately ...we may have to look at Formula E technology to power the boats.
Or ....give up and go back to rag and sticks....

Interesting, and more serious than you suggest as there isn't enough lithium, cobalt, and neodynium in the world to change from petrol and diesel to electric vehicles, the next level fuel cells haven't been invented as the their development has stalled and Governments are still perpetuating the myth that battery development still continues at a rapid rate, Governments gambled on the rate of battery development being high ans even under Teresa May's tenure it was well known and documented that battery development had stalled.

Greg2 said

Too early to be worrying about it IMHO.

Politicians have decided that fossil fuels will be phased out for cars in fifteen years but as has been alluded to, I doubt very much that the proposal is supported by evidence and a holistic view, No doubt that things have to change because of climate change but we need to get past political rhetoric and look at real world options and appropriate compromises based upon facts. I suspect (but don’t know because the research hasn’t been done) that pleasure boating contributes relatively little to carbon emissions and it may be that boating holidays are a better option than flying to Spain. Or maybe not. The point is that we need a plan that will do what is required without returning us to the dark ages if at all possible.

Having said all that I am not optimistic given the quality of our current political class...:( but we are planning to change boats and another mobo is most likely

The words Hammer, nail, and hit spring to mind , already Boris Johnson has contradicted himself and stated that cars will be either electric or hydrogen powered and as an engineer I am convinced hydrogen is still a fossil fuel which has to be used in an IC engine; apart from this a research document has been released to the engineering media which states that just to supply the demand for electric cars would require another 20 power stations built in the UK alone, and that is before they do away with gas central heating and cooking. You are correct about boating emissions as they are much less than flying a family of four to Costa Del Rip Off.

Mike F said

The point is this. We motorboaters haven’t got a leg to stand on. Some green willy waver in power is going to cotton on to the fact that we are driving around in boats guzzling diesel or petrol often at a rate of 1 mpg or less and often in areas with delicate eco systems purely in the pursuit of pleasure and they’re going to ask why it is allowed. And we aren’t going to have an answer. Our days are numbered unless the industry finds a lot cleaner and more efficient way of powering boats

Countering this is very easy Mike, the plain facts are that at the present time large cargo ships import a lot of goods ranging from food to consumer goods and they are consuming an average of 60 tonnes of heavy oil per day and if the Government wants commerce to continue then they simply cannot do away with these large ships; and the newest ships on the drawing board are even larger with even larger engines and even higher fuel consumption and the proposed scrubbers will do very little to reduce their emissions.
Now add the costs of mining all the rare earth metals, neodynium which is always in radioactive ground, cobolt, and lithium and the costs of transporting it mainly to China who have 80% of all these materials going to them for the next 20 years and you will still need large diesel engined dump trucks to transport it, large shovels to shovel it and large ships to transport it to China, then large ships to transport the finished goods around the world; then of course there is the problem of the batteries as currently only 3 elements can be economically recycled.
 
Some really interesting thoughts -thanks. I agree that many of the alternatives could be/are worse but my concern it that this is easier (!) than getting the Chinese or Americans to change their energy policy and politicians do like to show they are “doing” something.

So the general feeling is that we will be okay for some time yet due to lack of a sensible or viable alternative? I am surprised that the car industry is not making similar arguments regarding electric...
 
They probably are but at present there is an environmental tide running and I suspect they don’t see it their interest to be hugely vocal.

there have been commments by the society of motor trader and manufacturers that the scale for change from insignificant sales to 100% in 15 years is crazy but more time will tell.

I don’t think anyone has an issue with electric cars other than charging time. You can fuel a car in 5 mins. It takes an hour of a fast charger to do a car. For many that never matters - they charge at home - but from my perspective this is the biggest single problem to solve. Once they do ( battery swaps ?) there are not really many barriers. Even an Uber driver only does sub 200 miles a day
 
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