2 reefs, nr 2 on front, 24kts indicated wind, close hauled and still heeling too much

shmoo

shmoo

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We were out off Harwich today for a bit of a sail. The sea was those nasty pointy waves that you get off Harwich that lead to buoys being named "Rolling Ground". We expected a bit of wind and so set off with 2 reefs and the number two. What I didn't expect was to have the rail in the water with those sails when close hauled into indicated 24-26kts of wind. We were going fast enough, and indeed passing things, but it was pretty uncomfortable. 3 reefs and a number 3 seems to be going a bit far though.

What was I doing wrong?
 
I suspect that the main is setting too full when reefed. Make sure the reefing line is pulling the sail taut along the boom. The draft in the sail should only be about 5% of the chord from luff to leach.
Halyard tension should be fairly firm too.
Likewise the jib.
Check its not too full, which can be caused by the cars too forward.
Also was there much weather helm? This may make you sail too free as you fight the boat. A number two jib often works well with either a very flat full main (esp on fractional rig) or one reef. So the sail combination may not be ideal. The jib may be too big, causing you to sail low generating lots of heel, which then cancels out the lee helm from the jib.
For beating, I would only expect the main traveller to be about 6in to a foot off centre, except in very steep chop where 'footing off' is required to get any boatspeed. In this case, some boats sheet the jib a little more outboard, sometimes with a barber hauler.
All of the above will vary from boat to boat.
Some tell-tales on both leeches will tell you if the sails are stalling.
I would try one reef and No2 next time, in the absense of any class-specific gems of tuning.
 
Check its not too full, which can be caused by the cars too forward.
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This may have been the problem. I played with the car, but it is very sensitive. A little too far forward and the sail does look too full and we really do go on our ear, but a fraction back and the top flaps unless we fall off to about 40 degees off the wind.

We can only adjust the cars with the tension off, which means heading the wind briefly, and it is difficult to be sure we have established the same conditions again afterwards, which make comparison tricky.
 
2 reefs etc.....

You seem to have a problem with the sheet leads from the jib.
Some years ago I was told that the line from from the clew to track position should be from halfway on the luff length as a basic set-up. Because you have furled or set a smaller jib the length of sail luff will have reduced so the 50% position to the clew will have a different alignment ,and the car will need moving forward to give the correct tension/sheet lead.
This also applies if a furling jib is being reefed. The set-up can be done in harbour and marker pen or adhesive tapes used to pre-mark the positions for x number of furling turns/ rolls, or variety of jib size,marking the furling line as well as the track positions.
As regards the mainsail I agree with the traveller being used,and perhaps less kicker to allow
de-powering of the main.No doubt there is a sail maker to tell me differently!
 
shmoo said:
We were out off Harwich today for a bit of a sail. The sea was those nasty pointy waves that you get off Harwich that lead to buoys being named "Rolling Ground". We expected a bit of wind and so set off with 2 reefs and the number two. What I didn't expect was to have the rail in the water with those sails when close hauled into indicated 24-26kts of wind. We were going fast enough, and indeed passing things, but it was pretty uncomfortable. 3 reefs and a number 3 seems to be going a bit far though.

What was I doing wrong?
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By "number 2" do you mean a genoa or a small jib?
 
Lee_Shaw said:
By "number 2" do you mean a genoa or a small jib?
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I don't know. The clew comes back to about the mast or a little further and is about 1.5 - 2.0 m off the deck. The sail has 3 small battens near the top and comes in a bag marked "No 2".

We have been sailing for 6 years now and the Sigma is our first boat, and although we becoming relatively experienced cruising sailors, there are still many aspects that mystify us!
 
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shmoo said:
I don't know. The clew comes back to about the mast or a little further and is about 1.5 - 2.0 m off the deck. The sail has 3 small battens near the top and comes in a bag marked "No 2".

We have been sailing for 6 years now and the Sigma is our first boat, and although we becoming relatively experienced cruising sailors, there are still many aspects that mystify us!
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Has the sail got much belly to it or is it flat?
 
For what it's worth, I rather suspect that you had too much Jib on.

For comparison, on an Elan 37 racing with a full crew on the rail in that much wind we're on the number 3. Our equivalent of the 2 is used in 12-16 knots true. I'd be trying the 3 and 1 reef for those conditions.
 
flaming said:
For what it's worth, I rather suspect that you had too much Jib on.

For comparison, on an Elan 37 racing with a full crew on the rail in that much wind we're on the number 3. Our equivalent of the 2 is used in 12-16 knots true. I'd be trying the 3 and 1 reef for those conditions.
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It is looking that way.
 
shmoo said:
I wouldn't say it was flat, even when sheeted in very hard.
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I reckon the jib/genoa was too much for cruising upwind in those strengths. A flat "working jib" (sometimes called a "number 2" jib IIRC) and two reefs in the main, making sure that the reef is in nice and tight, should get you more upright and probably a little faster too.
 
Sail her upright

HI-

I used to have a Sigma 362 (MUSTIGO GBR 714T) which I sold in 2000.:D

I found she sailed faster upright and would put in the first reef at around 12 to 15 knts apparent depending on the sea state. The no-2 at around 20knts and the No 3 would go up next when the rail started to dig in again then the 2nd reef and eventually the 3rd.
:)
The key with this boat is to sail it relatively upright. We used to race against other SIGMS 362s and 36s and found that while we often had less sail up than them we usually went higher and faster.:)
 
temptress said:
HI-

I used to have a Sigma 362 (MUSTIGO GBR 714T) which I sold in 2000.:D

I found she sailed faster upright and would put in the first reef at around 12 to 15 knts apparent depending on the sea state. The no-2 at around 20knts and the No 3 would go up next when the rail started to dig in again then the 2nd reef and eventually the 3rd.
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Reefing at 12kts apparent seems a little early? Assuming we're talking beating that's about 8knots true!

A sail that just about fills the foretriangle is more like a No3 in my book. So it should be ok with one or two reefs balance wise.
Sounds like some sorting of sheet positions and getting the main flat will help.
But also technique on the helm (and sheet) comes into it, take opportunities to practise, keep an eye on the log, look for speed rather than the last degree of pointing, try different settings.
I'm not that familiar with the 362, although I looked at buying one. I used to have an Impala, that was a great boat, but racing was dependent on weight on the rail upwind. Sailing two up was different matter. In flat water, you could flatten everything and point high, but in waves it was necessary to reef earlier. Being a flexible fractional rig, you could flatten a lot with the backstay.
 
I am surprised that no one has mentioned luff tension yet. This is normally the problem when the wind blows a bit - the maximum draft moves aft quite a bit and this translates into more on your ears and less going forward.

I suggest that you trim the main for the draft at 40-40% and quite a shallow maximum draft to de-power the main a little.
 
tross said:
I am surprised that no one has mentioned luff tension yet. This is normally the problem when the wind blows a bit - the maximum draft moves aft quite a bit and this translates into more on your ears and less going forward.

I suggest that you trim the main for the draft at 40-40% and quite a shallow maximum draft to de-power the main a little.
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Probably even more significant will be the headstay sag. Too much and you get a very powerful sail.

Just goes to show that this sailing business doesn't get easier as you gain experience, it just throws up more stuff to confuse you!
 
flaming said:
Probably even more significant will be the headstay sag. Too much and you get a very powerful sail.

Just goes to show that this sailing business doesn't get easier as you gain experience, it just throws up more stuff to confuse you!
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Agree. I'm in my 10th season with the same boat but I put a new bearing in the backstay adjuster last winter. No I can wind it on really tight in a blow (without the adjuster sounding like it's going to fall apart) and I find the boat pointing higher and heeling less.
We have a masthead rig and carry a high clewed genoa with a full height luff that comes back just behind the mast but it was sold to us as a No.3! Mind you the No.1 is a 150% monster.
 
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