G
Guest
Guest
See the first long and conspicuous letter in The Daily Telegraph dated Wednesday 10th July. It is headed 'Yachting needs more rules to save lives'.
incognito
N/A
incognito
N/A
I personally have no problem with the import of this message. It is interesting to note that in the new Chapter V inclusion of us pleasureboats, we have still no regulation on carrying safety equipment.
Any vessel going offshore should have up-to-date flares and a liferaft - maybe also a spare handheld VHF. If that sounds a lot to provide, consider it against the cost of the yacht and the cost of loss of life.
Such regulations don't need some continuous policing, just insurers making your policy void if an accident occurs and it can be shown that....
Incidentally, I - in common with everyone I know - don't need regulation to make me carry those items, plus a grab-bag with loads of other stuff.
Any vessel going offshore should have up-to-date flares and a liferaft - maybe also a spare handheld VHF. If that sounds a lot to provide, consider it against the cost of the yacht and the cost of loss of life.
Such regulations don't need some continuous policing, just insurers making your policy void if an accident occurs and it can be shown that....
Incidentally, I - in common with everyone I know - don't need regulation to make me carry those items, plus a grab-bag with loads of other stuff.
iangrant
New member
Yep - most of us don't need regulations to carry the right gear to go offshore, I have all the flares, liferaft, etc....but there are those who will toddle off with nothing but a flat torch - like there are still those who drink and drive! BTW what do you have in your grab bag?
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
It's difficult to argue with the viewpoint of this grieving father and I would accept the sense of making it mandatory to carry certain items of equipment on voyages of a particular nature. Indeed, the French already do this. Doing so may save some lives. It wouldn't, I suspect, have helped Tuila's crew very much though.
Regulation in itself doesn't guarantee that particular lives will be saved. The odds are very heavily (in that only very small parts of the boat have ever been found) that Tuila was run down. In which case, given four tons of Twister vs several thousand tons of ship, the chances of a self inflating liferaft 'saving' anybody are remote.
The way that cars and trucks are constructed, equipped, used, inspected, etc is very heavily regulated. That doesn't prevent 3000 deaths a year on UK roads.
Regulation in itself doesn't guarantee that particular lives will be saved. The odds are very heavily (in that only very small parts of the boat have ever been found) that Tuila was run down. In which case, given four tons of Twister vs several thousand tons of ship, the chances of a self inflating liferaft 'saving' anybody are remote.
The way that cars and trucks are constructed, equipped, used, inspected, etc is very heavily regulated. That doesn't prevent 3000 deaths a year on UK roads.
gus
Member
It is all too easy to speculate with hindsight. I think it is all summed up by the statement:
Barry Goldsworth, district controller at Thames Coastguard, said: "It was with great sadness that we informed the families when the bodies of their loved ones were recovered from the water. We still do not know how they lost their lives. No evidence has surfaced, as yet, as to the cause of the accident or incident."
Barry Goldsworth, district controller at Thames Coastguard, said: "It was with great sadness that we informed the families when the bodies of their loved ones were recovered from the water. We still do not know how they lost their lives. No evidence has surfaced, as yet, as to the cause of the accident or incident."
G
Guest
Guest
Sorry to disagree but "all" vessels going offshore do not need to carry a liferaft.
As an example, my own boat is a self-righting converted lifeboat which weighs 4 tons and which has 8 tons of internal buoyancy.
I have seen the results of an identical boat being towed around the North Sea by a Supply Boat in a Force 8 gale for 12 hours with the bows ripped out. (The sight convinced me to NEVER take a tow in rough weather!!!) Life on board would have been uncomfortable to say the least - but definitely preferable to a small liferaft.
Also, the Etap range of boats has built in buoyancy so why swap a 27 foot fully buoyant foam filled craft that can still go places for a 2m x 2m bit of rubber held afloat by two or three air bags that can only lie static in the water?
I agree that if the boat can sink one should carry a liferaft but otherwise it should surely be a matter of personal choice - or are you a "regulate everything" type of person?
Best regards
)
Ian D
As an example, my own boat is a self-righting converted lifeboat which weighs 4 tons and which has 8 tons of internal buoyancy.
I have seen the results of an identical boat being towed around the North Sea by a Supply Boat in a Force 8 gale for 12 hours with the bows ripped out. (The sight convinced me to NEVER take a tow in rough weather!!!) Life on board would have been uncomfortable to say the least - but definitely preferable to a small liferaft.
Also, the Etap range of boats has built in buoyancy so why swap a 27 foot fully buoyant foam filled craft that can still go places for a 2m x 2m bit of rubber held afloat by two or three air bags that can only lie static in the water?
I agree that if the boat can sink one should carry a liferaft but otherwise it should surely be a matter of personal choice - or are you a "regulate everything" type of person?
Best regards
)Ian D
incognito
N/A
I am in favour of regulations only where they relate to safety at sea, which, unfortunately, applies to most things when you think about it (eg. engines). Sure, yours and Etap owners may be special cases, but they are the minority (incidentally, what would you jump into if you had an uncontrollable fire aboard? My guess is that you will have a trite answer to that).
Trouble is, this 'personal decision' thing, is that it is often made by one person on behalf of, and without the knowledge of, another party. The skipper decides that out-of-date flares are good enough, and "why bother with a liferaft, after all we've got the old rubberdubber Avon". Having made that decision, he invites friends aboard for a week's trip over to Belgian coast. His VHF packed up a couple of weeks ago, and he doesn't believe in EPIRBs. When he gets run down by a very large commercial craft - they find themselves sinking, physically damaged in various ways, but, if they had survival equipment, one or more MIGHT have a chance of surviving. Without it, they die of hypothermia followed by drowning a few hours later. Oh, and to add to it all, they only had one lifejacket, and the mice had compromised the buoyancy of that years ago.
I dislike regulation, eg I have to get my old car MOT'd each year, and it costs me money and is damned inconvenient, sometimes I have to renew something that would have waited till some obvious signs of something wrong. I am also glad I have to do this each year, and that most other cars are subject to the same regulation. Yes, we know it is also fiddled, just as a boaty regulation would be fiddled by the shortsighted and irresponsible.
Bring on the boat MOT, I say !! Painful on the pooket, bloody nuisance, invasion of our civil liberties - but I would welcome it.
Trouble is, this 'personal decision' thing, is that it is often made by one person on behalf of, and without the knowledge of, another party. The skipper decides that out-of-date flares are good enough, and "why bother with a liferaft, after all we've got the old rubberdubber Avon". Having made that decision, he invites friends aboard for a week's trip over to Belgian coast. His VHF packed up a couple of weeks ago, and he doesn't believe in EPIRBs. When he gets run down by a very large commercial craft - they find themselves sinking, physically damaged in various ways, but, if they had survival equipment, one or more MIGHT have a chance of surviving. Without it, they die of hypothermia followed by drowning a few hours later. Oh, and to add to it all, they only had one lifejacket, and the mice had compromised the buoyancy of that years ago.
I dislike regulation, eg I have to get my old car MOT'd each year, and it costs me money and is damned inconvenient, sometimes I have to renew something that would have waited till some obvious signs of something wrong. I am also glad I have to do this each year, and that most other cars are subject to the same regulation. Yes, we know it is also fiddled, just as a boaty regulation would be fiddled by the shortsighted and irresponsible.
Bring on the boat MOT, I say !! Painful on the pooket, bloody nuisance, invasion of our civil liberties - but I would welcome it.
oldharry
Well-known member
I would pretty certain, Incognito, that if your 'friend' were run down by a 'large commercial craft' there is no safety gear in the world, or regulation, test, or other beaurotwatic nonsense that would make such a scenario survivable!
X thousand tons of steel, with a very large meat mincer on the back, and travelling maybe at 15 or 20 knots, versus a couple of tons of GRP.... Survival probability - near nil!
X thousand tons of steel, with a very large meat mincer on the back, and travelling maybe at 15 or 20 knots, versus a couple of tons of GRP.... Survival probability - near nil!
dickh
New member
Deaths at sea / mountaineering?
What is the number of deaths per year whilsts boating as against the number killed in mountaineering/climbing accidents each year? I seem to remember reading that climbing related deaths were more than boating...
dickh
I'd rather be sailing...
What is the number of deaths per year whilsts boating as against the number killed in mountaineering/climbing accidents each year? I seem to remember reading that climbing related deaths were more than boating...
dickh
I'd rather be sailing...
wayneA
New member
Didn't they say that about the Titanic - 'She's unsinkable, so why bother carry the correct amount of life boats'
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Horse riding
And I believe horse riding is one of the more dangerous pastimes.
And I believe horse riding is one of the more dangerous pastimes.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
There\'s still fire to worry about on an Etap. nm
§
§
steveh
New member
Once you start with these type of regulations there will be no stopping - first it will be checks that you have the correct safety gear and then some beaurowhotsit will decide it would be much safer to have double of everything - just in case!
I'm sure the Inland Revenue would start rubbing there hands together at the chance of another source of taxing us.
Personally one of the pleasures of sailing is getting away from the bl**dy nanny state.
Educate not regulate - RNLI sea checks, RYA courses, sailing clubs even internet forums!!
The knowlegde is there. It has worked pretty well so far!
I'm sure the Inland Revenue would start rubbing there hands together at the chance of another source of taxing us.
Personally one of the pleasures of sailing is getting away from the bl**dy nanny state.
Educate not regulate - RNLI sea checks, RYA courses, sailing clubs even internet forums!!
The knowlegde is there. It has worked pretty well so far!
Mirelle
N/A
Compulsory insurance
One thing that I remember from my first job, as a trainee with an insurance company - there are three things that must, by law, carry insurance in Britain:
Motor cars, in respect of third parties
Employers, in respect of their liability to employees
Riding Schools
As always its the silly answer to the trick question that sticks in your mind.
One thing that I remember from my first job, as a trainee with an insurance company - there are three things that must, by law, carry insurance in Britain:
Motor cars, in respect of third parties
Employers, in respect of their liability to employees
Riding Schools
As always its the silly answer to the trick question that sticks in your mind.
Mirelle
N/A
No liferaft
I suspect that I should get one, but there are some things that I would welcome advice on.
Frankly I doubt if a valise raft below deck is any use at all.
One would bever manoeuvre the thing up through the companion hatch in time. They are bulky and heavy.
My rigid dinghy on the coachroof offers a better prospect.
A valise in the cockpit gets in the way and probably does itself no good - trodden on, rain, spray...
So a canister is the right type. But a canister stowed forward is vulnerable. Canister on aft deck is only solution - with hydrostatic release.
OK for big boats or modern boats with fat backsides. No good for a small traditionally shaped boat.
I suspect that I should get one, but there are some things that I would welcome advice on.
Frankly I doubt if a valise raft below deck is any use at all.
One would bever manoeuvre the thing up through the companion hatch in time. They are bulky and heavy.
My rigid dinghy on the coachroof offers a better prospect.
A valise in the cockpit gets in the way and probably does itself no good - trodden on, rain, spray...
So a canister is the right type. But a canister stowed forward is vulnerable. Canister on aft deck is only solution - with hydrostatic release.
OK for big boats or modern boats with fat backsides. No good for a small traditionally shaped boat.
G
Guest
Guest
Liferafts were originally intended for people crossing oceans where they could be away from a source of rescue for days on end - hence the requirement for the craft to carry food and water.
IMHO more economical and useful items of kit for sailing within 50 to 100 miles of land is a decent survival suit and a waterproof H/H VHF.
The suits can be donned whenever things look "iffy" (e.g. rough weather, fog in the Channel etc) and deployment is a matter of jumping over the side. Plus if you have a MOB situation the victim is already ahead of the game!!
It's a sad fact of life that none of us are going to live forever - so lets just live a little while we are here eh??
IMHO more economical and useful items of kit for sailing within 50 to 100 miles of land is a decent survival suit and a waterproof H/H VHF.
The suits can be donned whenever things look "iffy" (e.g. rough weather, fog in the Channel etc) and deployment is a matter of jumping over the side. Plus if you have a MOB situation the victim is already ahead of the game!!
It's a sad fact of life that none of us are going to live forever - so lets just live a little while we are here eh??
G
Guest
Guest
that pretty much sums it up ian