1980's Beneteau Keel bolts - does this sound right

[30boat]

Re: 1980's Beneteau Keel bolts

Was anyone else surprised by how short the bolts looked?

The bolts only need to be twice as long as they are thick, I think. Unless the keel is made of cheese

 

[pvb]

Re: 1980's Beneteau Keel bolts

The bolts only need to be twice as long as they are thick, I think. Unless the keel is made of cheese

Probably, but I assumed the hull thickness might be quite generous where the bolts go through. Just thought they'd have been longer.

 

[Trop Cher]

Re: 1980's Beneteau Keel bolts

Many thanks for reporting back and the photos.
All very helpful

 

[wully1]

Re: 1980's Beneteau Keel bolts

Was anyone else surprised by how short the bolts looked?

I was stunned when I changed the keel bolts in my ( much missed) First 38. I couldn't believe how short they were but after getting the spec and drawings from Beneteau, they were the correct length. Thinking about it, the length isn't the strength in the bolt - it's the cross sectional area. And as long as plenty of that is in the keel all should be good.
Anyway, the keel - or anything else about that boat- never gave me any cause for concern.

 

[lauriel]

I have a 1988 Beneteau Oceanis 320 purchased 2 years ago in Australia. The heads and washers of the keel bolts were in shocking condition and I immediately had them all removed, one at a time and replaced. On removal, the condition of every bolt - apart from the head and washer - appeared perfect.

The original bolts were 20mm diameter and I understand made from high tensile steel. Later boats, I'm told, used 25mm stainless and the extra diameter was to give the required strength due to stainless being weaker than high tensile steel.

The new high tensile bolts were readily available and exactly the same size and shank as the originals except for the head being 32mm compared with 28mm for the originals which had to be severely mangled to allow them to be removed by an impact wrench. Two other factors which pleased me were the new bolts were of certified quality - for building construction - and much cheaper than stainless. lauriel

 

[langstonelayabout]

Re: 1980's Beneteau Keel bolts

The part that matters is good but those heads and washers were in poor shape.I removed one of my Fulmar's keelbolts some time ago and it looked as good as the day it was turned. And there's absolutely no rust anywhere. The hole on the keel had been filled with oil by the way. Also from 1980.

The heads of th removed bolts looked fine to me.

I just wish I still had access to a tensile tester and could pull the bolts: I expect their breaking load would be near as dammit the same as new bolts of the same material.

 

[wully1]

Re: 1980's Beneteau Keel bolts

The heads of th removed bolts looked fine to me.

I just wish I still had access to a tensile tester and could pull the bolts: I expect their breaking load would be near as dammit the same as new bolts of the same material.

I was involved in a well head bolt inspection any years ago - can't remember the exact results but you would need to loose a lot of material from the bolt to have an impact on its strength.
But if you had corrosion on the threads and also the material they were mated too...
Im sure someone far more knowledgeable than me can help??

 

[brccd]

Re: 1980's Beneteau Keel bolts

it was just a 240v 1/2 drive one hired from my local hire shop for £15.

The torque was 209nm (154ft lbs) as specified by beneteau. Not necessarily the same for a Jeanneau though so I'd check with them first to be sure

Hello Jonrarit,

I have a 1985 beneteau first 345 , saw your posting and was interested. I know this is an old post, and hopefully your are still on the site! I also have rusting keel bolts...original...so 30 yrs old. I have some weeping water from one or two, and rusted tops of bolts. I see you spoke with beneteau and they gave a torque rating o f 154 ft lbs...Was that for all of the bolts?

Also, they say 11 bolts, but I only readily see 8 bolts...possibly two other right in back of the mast covered by fiberglass i think? Did you change 11 bolts? Did you have a drawing for this?

Using the impact wrench, was that while the boat was out of the water, on land?

Hope to hear back.

Thanks,
Bert

 

[jonrarit]

Re: 1980's Beneteau Keel bolts

Hi Bert, still here

Yes the torque setting was the same for all the bolts. There are indeed 11 bolts as follows

2 - In front of the mast
8 - in pairs behind the mast
1 - single at the rear.

You need to remove all the pipes in the bilges to see them as well as the table. You also need to cut the fixed part of the floor under the saloon seat, just in front of the galley. I did this with a jig saw and refitted it with screws and a batten to rest on.

I did it with the boat out the water however beneteau say they can be done one by one with the boat in the water.

If you need any info at all, or photos then you're welcome to keep in touch either on forum, PM or direct email. Glad to be able to help.

Jonathan

 

[brccd]

Re: 1980's Beneteau Keel bolts

Hi Jonathan...

Thanks for getting back to me...

I plan on doing a short haul in June (bottom paint), and may then try to do something about these bolts then.

My boat is a 1985 First 345...I wasn't sure if your boat is the same year. I will have to look closer, but I didnt see two bolts in front of the mast...saw the first one.. 6 central, and one last one....so I have to find 3 more?

Did you have the mast off? Were those two under the plate the mast stands on or just behind it (I don't recall them in front of the mast)?
Looking forward of the bilge sump area, just behind the mast I see two bumps that look like they are under the fiberglass...are those the other two bolts? I will take some pics and see if it compares to your experience.

Good to have someone who has gone through this...

The plumbing and wire removal will be a pain...and I thought I would have to cut the floor as you say.

One question...when you started to try removing the bolts with the impact wrench, did you use any
penetrating oil first? did they loosen right away with that impact wrench? Did you have any problems removing them?

I just received the box of bolts\washers from beneteau...they are just waiting for a new home!

Thanks,
Bert

 

[brccd]

Re: 1980's Beneteau Keel bolts

Hello Jonathan,

Not sure if my reply posted...I will take some pics of the bolts in my case and compare to your experience.

Thanks,
Bert

 

[jonrarit]

Re: 1980's Beneteau Keel bolts

Hi Bert

Yup mine is a 1985 model too.

The two bolts you refer to are "forward" of the mast. (We seem to be getting a bit confused using the words "behind" and "in front") They certainly wernt fibreglassed in at the factory so perhaps this was done by a previous owner.

I've attached a picture HERE showing the location of all 11 bolts

The plumbing is a pain but worth taking the time to clean it all up ... bilges look lovely now.
I didnt use penetrating oil and all the bolts came out relatively easily using the impact wrench. I did have a selection of 28/29/30mm sockets and used the tightest fitting one on each bolt.

Once "cracked" I used an extending socket wrench to undo them. It took a reasonable amount of strength to break the factory sealant as they unscrewed.....good stuff that.

As you know, the new ones are studs with washers & nuts. Some of the washers needed grinding to size to make sure they sat flat against the hull. I also shortened the new studs so they didn't sit proud of the nuts otherwise you'd ever get the bilge piping back in.

Jonathan

 

[brccd]

Re: 1980's Beneteau Keel bolts

Hi Bert

Yup mine is a 1985 model too.

The two bolts you refer to are "forward" of the mast. (We seem to be getting a bit confused using the words "behind" and "in front") They certainly wernt fibreglassed in at the factory so perhaps this was done by a previous owner.

I've attached a picture HERE showing the location of all 11 bolts

The plumbing is a pain but worth taking the time to clean it all up ... bilges look lovely now.
I didnt use penetrating oil and all the bolts came out relatively easily using the impact wrench. I did have a selection of 28/29/30mm sockets and used the tightest fitting one on each bolt.

Once "cracked" I used an extending socket wrench to undo them. It took a reasonable amount of strength to break the factory sealant as they unscrewed.....good stuff that.

As you know, the new ones are studs with washers & nuts. Some of the washers needed grinding to size to make sure they sat flat against the hull. I also shortened the new studs so they didn't sit proud of the nuts otherwise you'd ever get the bilge piping back in.

Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for your photo... your info is most helpful. Something looks a little different around the mast compared to my boat...do you have a fin keel, and this is a 345 first correct? I have a full fin keel..wondering if something different there?

I will go to my boat tomorrow and take some pics..but the table and tubing are still in the way! I will look again, but I think I have one bolt (center forward) where you show 1 and 2.

Bolts 3 and 4 are kind of where I saw bumps under fiberglass. I see Bolts 5 to 11 on my boat as yours. I also have a water heater \ flooring that will need to be removed around bolts 9, 10 and 11...arrrgghhh.

Looks like a lot of prep work to do! Not really looking forward to this!
I will send pics tomorrow...

Regards.
Bert

 

[brccd]

Hi Jonathan,

I am attaching 2 pictures that show my boat keel bolts. There is some difference..seems like some additonal fiberglass in front of the mast (table legs screw into here).

The bolts you show 3 and 4 are what I think are the bumps of fiberglass i saw in that area. there are two bolts in front of the mast ...and are in line rather than side by side like the others...is that how that shows in your boat?

Lastly, the impact wrench you used..was it a 1/2" driver or 3/4? drive? particular brand?

I actually cleaned two bolts off...once the protective goop (which was hardened) was chipped off...the bolts looked pretty good...dried things out...and did not appear to be leaking at all! there is the last bolt....some water still in bilge...trying to dry out and make sure that one isnt leaking...let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Bert

 

[Robin]

Over many years and different boats I have suspected water in the bilges from leaking keel bolts but the reality has always proven different with the water coming from other sources. A corroded looking nut, stud or bolt always makes the keel bolt appear prime suspect of course but not necessarily so in fact. I like, indeed expect, to see dust in the bilges and water outside of the boat. Tracing water to it'ssouce is a time consuming and frustrating job. In recent times we have used talcum powder and kitchen towel as tell tales to point to a source. Our most recent episodes since moving to hot climes have involved condensation drains from air conditioners draining to the bilges, now re-plumbed to collect in shower sump trays with small built in automatic bilge pumps that periodically empty it overboard. another recent villain was the pressure relief valve on the calorifier letting off some after engine running whilst the on board pressure system was on, even a 15 minute engine run could generate enough extra heat to open the relief valve and leak some off. In that cae I put the drain tube into an empty tonic bottle and saw that it could fill a 1 litre bottle in double quick time,

I think I would want to totally exclude all other possible water sources before going as far as withdrawing any keel bolts.

 

[jonrarit]

Ah Bert ...are you state side by any chance? I believe (and am prepared to be corrected) there were some US spec'd 345's that had keel stepped masts like yours ..... mine is deck stepped.

I suspect you will find 2 bolts under the "bridge" where the table sits on......not sure how you will get to them though?

Firstly please note my earlier photo of numbered bolts was incorrect. Bolt 1 & 2 are indeed in line fore and aft of each other just like yours, not side by side.

Your bolt forward of the mast looks like it has indeed been factory glassed in. My thoughts on this one would be it aint broke, don't try and fix it. The exposed one next to it looks like it has the same rectangular steel plate washer under it as I had

In my case it was the plates that were corroding not the bolt. This PHOTO is the two in front of the mast on mine. The picture is taken from the starboard side ... the bolt on the left in the photo is the one glassed in on yours.

If it puts your mind at ease here is a PHOTO of some of the bolts I removed ...... the exposed heads wernt too pretty but they were still solid and as you can see the threads were pristine. With hindsight I could have just replaced all the washers and used the same bolts

As robin mentioned, are you sure your bolts are seeping? I'd be surprised if they were.

Given it's now sailing season I'd be tempted to wait until next winter before tackling this job. Go sailing instead

Jonathan

PS - I used a 240v 1/2" drive impact driver

 

[brccd]

Hi Jonathan,

Yes I am in NY, Long Island....The boat was originally purchased in france by my uncle in 1985...so I am not sure if it was made differently knowing it would go to the US...the mast is keel stepped. Those other two bolts also looked glassed over under that table support.

All your info and everyone elses is so much appreciated!

It has been nicer weather lately, and looking to clear out water from the bildge and really determine if there is really water seeping through bolts. After cleaning off the first few foward...and things are dry...i see no seepage.

The bolts are looking good, and waiting for last bits of water to clear on the last bolt aft...there seems to be some water...but it may be sitting in the channel for the hoses...trying to get that all out to determine if that one is seeping. Last short haul, about 2 yrs ago..keel joint outside looked fine..

Its funny the "goop" that was put over the bolts is hardened, and looked like part of the bolt, cracking looking bad...which made it look like the bolt was falling apart...that does not seem to be the case.

I was planning to clean this area up, add some 4200 sealant around bolts, and lather on barrier coat paint (interlux-2 part epoxy paint), over the bolts as well as the whole bilge area. I bought new bolts from beneteau and may not need them after all...at least for a while!

I will plan I think to do the sailing for now as you suggest! More fun...

Keep you posted!

Thanks,
Bert

 

[BurnitBlue]

I changed the keel bolts on my Moody which were mild steel. I was surprised at how short they were, only 5 inch or so. I made enquires at SKF the Swedish factory in Gothenberg that specialize in Mild steel bolt connections. They have a good web page which states that for a blind bolt insert into a solid iron metal the depth of penetration need only be around twice the diameter of the bolt. (slightly less, the web page gives something like 1 5/8 of the diameter of the bolt but I cannot remember the exact figure)

I am still unhappy about bolt on keels to a GRP hull. In the past keels were bolted to wood hulls with a deadwood spacer. The wood will of course compress when torqued up and will actually expand when launched. Not so with GRP which will crush if over-tightened and goodness knows what happens to those co-polymer molecule thingies when stress due to sailing bends them around a bit.

 

[Tranona]

Not so with GRP which will crush if over-tightened and goodness knows what happens to those co-polymer molecule thingies when stress due to sailing bends them around a bit.

Cannot understand why you are so concerned about this. literally hundreds of thousands of boats have their keels attached in this way. As you discovered when you changed yours there was no need to do it.

Mistake to compare with how wooden boats are put together - and as we wooden boat owners know keels and their fastenings present far more problems than you will ever get with GRP boats.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Cannot understand why you are so concerned about this. literally hundreds of thousands of boats have their keels attached in this way. As you discovered when you changed yours there was no need to do it.

Mistake to compare with how wooden boats are put together - and as we wooden boat owners know keels and their fastenings present far more problems than you will ever get with GRP boats.

I had to change them because a year after I bought the boat another skipper who was good friends with my boats previous owner told me a story of what happened when he employed an Austrian Marine Engineer (a good one apparently) to change them for an insurance survey.

The Engineer was half way through swapping them out when the Yard owners (Ionian Marine) demanded a 30% consideration on the gross price of the job. The engineer told them to F-off. The yard owners responded by making this engineer PNG and to F-off immediately leaving the boat in a mess.

The boat had to be moved over to Preveza so that the engineer could complete the job. I asked around but nobody knew how the boat was transported to Preveza or whether the keel bolt job was completed in or out of the water.

I was forced to buy new bolts and swap them myself to ensure peace of mind. It was an easy job because the engineer had only done the job three years earlier so everything was loose. One thing I didn't like was that the engineer had welded the nuts to the studs. Never heard of this before and I wondered if this would make nipping up the bolt difficult in a few years time. Anyway it was all OK.