1,2 Both Switch - When on Both do the 2 batteries even out on charge?

[lpdsn]

Why on earth would you want to isolate the engine every time you switch it off? Do you do the same in your car?

I realise boat security systems aren't quite Fort Knox, but I'd rather not make it possible for a passing stranger to hop into the cockpit with a Yanmar key and start the engine.

 

[PaulRainbow]

If I really needed to I would just pop the breakers on the individual batteries, as required. But honestly, "catastrophic battery failure" ... what century are you living in? We no longer have rubber-cased batteries sealed with bitumen, you know.

What, you think batteries today don't fail ?

And I am just dying to know how that quaint circuit you posted copes when both fuses have blown and the wiring's on fire ...

What do you suppose would happen to blow both breakers and set the wiring alight ?

Not that it's a bad circuit, of course, just rather out of date.

Of course it's out of date, it has a 1-2-both switch in it. It was designed to make a silk purse out of a pigs ear and to solve the fusing mess that the OP planned. I said at the time, it's not what i'd normally design.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I realise boat security systems aren't quite Fort Knox, but I'd rather not make it possible for a passing stranger to hop into the cockpit with a Yanmar key and start the engine.

Does that happen often to people who have

... just gone to the boat to do a bit of maintenance and just want the domestics on to listen to the radio, or have working lights or to keep the milk in the fridge cool so you can have a cuppa whilst you work?

When I re-engined this year I gave up on keys altogether. Nanni do a nice "flybridge" panel with an on-off switch instead of the key, which means less faffing and nothing to step on. I switch the electrics off when I'm leaving the boat for an extended period, though I'm not sure why.

What, you think batteries today don't fail ?

Catastrophically or without warning? No, not the ones I use, though of course I don't know what you supply to your clients. I have had to replace two car batteries and one boat battery over the past five years, and all gave long warning that they were on their way out. None of them exploded.

What do you suppose would happen to blow both breakers and set the wiring alight ?

I don't know, and it seems most unlikely to me, but you raised it as a possibility:

You are motoring in heavy weather and the engine battery catastrophically fails and the engine cuts out. The engine battery fuse has blown (if you don't have one, the battery wiring is on fire so you need to deal with that). You switch to "combine" and the domestic fuse also blows (or you have a second fire to deal with if you have no fuses).

I'm also intrigued to know what sort of catastrophic battery failure results in fuses (fuses!) blowing and wiring catching fire.

As for out of date circuits (that quaint one with the three separate switches)

Of course it's out of date, it has a 1-2-both switch in it. It was designed to make a silk purse out of a pigs ear and to solve the fusing mess that the OP planned. I said at the time, it's not what i'd normally design.

I was referring to that rather string-and-sealing wax arrangement of three separate switches. Which would work, I grant you, in much the same way that the manual advance on an Austin 7 works. Horses for courses, of course, and if your clients are happy to pay for work of that standard, why not?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Catastrophically or without warning? No, not the ones I use, though of course I don't know what you supply to your clients. I have had to replace two car batteries and one boat battery over the past five years, and all gave long warning that they were on their way out. None of them exploded.

You are one person with a few batteries, not really a representative sample. I have seen many, many batteries fail, some totally unexpected and some catastrophically. I was chatting to a customer earlier this year who was driving along in his works Transit when the battery under the seat exploded, no warning. He was lucky not to have lost his eyesight.

I had one fail without warning on a previous boat, whilst on passage. It refused to take any charge whatsoever, when the engine was switched off all of the domestic circuits went off.

I don't know, and it seems most unlikely to me, but you raised it as a possibility:

What i raised was the possibility of a failed battery blowing the fuse. If you then switched to "combine" it would blow the other one.

I'm also intrigued to know what sort of catastrophic battery failure results in fuses (fuses!) blowing and wiring catching fire.

Batteries can fail internally, resulting in a short circuit. This can ignite the hydrogen in the battery and cause it to explode.

As for out of date circuits (that quaint one with the three separate switches)

I was referring to that rather string-and-sealing wax arrangement of three separate switches. Which would work, I grant you, in much the same way that the manual advance on an Austin 7 works. Horses for courses, of course, and if your clients are happy to pay for work of that standard, why not?

Shame you had to resort to talking rubbish and being rude.

My "rather quaint" arrangement is fitted to a huge amount of modern production boats and has been so for several years.

 

[ex-Gladys]

Modern batteries do fail, generally due to individual cells shorting out. Yuasa Motorcycle Batteries have a bit of a reputation for this, and they will be fine one day, and useless the next.

 

[rogerthebodger]

You are one person with a few batteries, not really a representative sample. I have seen many, many batteries fail, some totally unexpected and some catastrophically. I was chatting to a customer earlier this year who was driving along in his works Transit when the battery under the seat exploded, no warning. He was lucky not to have lost his eyesight.

Is this what you are referring to http://product-recalls.org/forum/Thread-ford-transit-battery-recalled

I would love what exactly caused to explosion

I had one fail without warning on a previous boat, whilst on passage. It refused to take any charge whatsoever, when the engine was switched off all of the domestic circuits went off.

Again what was the mode of failure

What i raised was the possibility of a failed battery blowing the fuse. If you then switched to "combine" it would blow the other one.

How would a failed battery blow it fuse. The fuse would need a very high current flow to blow so I don't understand how a dead battery could provide a very high current flow. Also once the fuse had blown then failed battery would be disconnected from the circuit so how can it blow the other fuse. To me this could only result from a failed item somewhere causing excessive current supplied by the battery thus blowing the fuses. The failed battery being the result not the cause

Batteries can fail internally, resulting in a short circuit. This can ignite the hydrogen in the battery and cause it to explode.

for any hydrogen to explode there must be a particular oxygen/hydrogen ratio as was discussed some time age. There must also be an electrical spark to ignite the oxygen/hydrogen mix within the oxygen/hydrogen mix. Most short circuit inside batteries are when the battery plates short due to much at the bottom of the battery cell


My "rather quaint" arrangement is fitted to a huge amount of modern production boats and has been so for several years.

the problem with most modern production boats are designed for the weekend sailor and down to a cost as most things are these days

 

[awol]

I look forward to the discussion when Lithium Ion, Hydrogen fuel cell and other technologies are considered.

(Still not too dighted to operate a 1-Both-2 switch)

 

[lpdsn]

Does that happen often to people who have...

I wouldn't know. I just turn the domestics on and leave them on till I go home. I don't bother turning them on and off everytime I nip up to the marina building or into town. I only turn the engine battery on when I want to run the engine.

You're probably better off asking the question of someone who has that sort of switch you're recommending.

And in the real world boats aren't nicked that often but if mine was I would rather my insurance company didn't think it was because I was stupid.

 

[lpdsn]

I look forward to the discussion when Lithium Ion, Hydrogen fuel cell and other technologies are considered.

(Still not too dighted to operate a 1-Both-2 switch)

I'm sure Li Ion batteries of some form will be the norm in 20 years time. I'm just waiting for a few enthusiasts (mugs) to do the pioneering work and fine the problems then I might well be going for it myself.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Is this what you are referring to http://product-recalls.org/forum/Thr...ttery-recalled

No, i'm referring to the customer i was speaking to. He was driving along and the battery under the seat exploded, he got acid in his face and eyes and had to spend a few days in hospital, luckily he didn't lose his eyesight.

Again what was the mode of failure

Started the boat (mobo) and set off on a two day trip, everything was fine. Arrived at the first day stopover and switched the engine off to refuel. All the domestic circuits went off too, evidently the domestic circuits were running from the alternator. Restarted the engine by using the "combine" setting of the BlueSea switch that JD uses, everything worked and we moved the boat to its berth for the night. Cleaned all of the terminals and connected to shore power, turning the mains charger on. In the morning, switched the mains charger back on and it was still totally dead. Completed the next 100 mile leg with the switch set to "combine" and the domestic battery disconnected.

How would a failed battery blow it fuse. The fuse would need a very high current flow to blow so I don't understand how a dead battery could provide a very high current flow.

Not necessarily. The other end of the cable will be connected somewhere, maybe the alternator, solar controller, wind gen'. Unusual, but i've seen it happen with cars.

Also once the fuse had blown then failed battery would be disconnected from the circuit so how can it blow the other fuse.

Yes, you're right there Roger, my bad.

for any hydrogen to explode there must be a particular oxygen/hydrogen ratio as was discussed some time age. There must also be an electrical spark to ignite the oxygen/hydrogen mix within the oxygen/hydrogen mix. Most short circuit inside batteries are when the battery plates short due to much at the bottom of the battery cell.

Batteries do explode. However, that isn't something that i actually raised as it isn't really the reason for fitting better switching circuits. That was something random that JD threw in and i addressed.

the problem with most modern production boats are designed for the weekend sailor and down to a cost as most things are these days.

Probably true of many things, but the system i suggested wouldn't be the cheapest solution, a 1-2-both would probably be the cheapest. A BEP 1-2-both switch costs roughly the same as a trio of BEP contour switches and a Victron VSR. The cabling and labour for three switches would be a tiny bit more, but in the grand scheme of owning a boat there isn't enough difference to worry about.

 

[PaulRainbow]

But honestly, "catastrophic battery failure" ... what century are you living in? We no longer have rubber-cased batteries sealed with bitumen, you know.

The AA, RAC and Greenflag are all eagerly awaiting your phone call to tell them what batteries you use, because at this moment in time, battery problems are the most common reason for a call out. In 2014 the RAC alone attended 450,000 battery related callouts. Way back in 2006 they attended over 130,000 vehicles with batteries that needed replacing !!

Tell them you'll share your secret for £1 per callout and you'll be a millionaire :encouragement:

Not that it's a bad circuit, of course, just rather out of date.

Next, (if your new millions are not enough) make phone calls to Jeanneau, Beneteau, Bavaria, Halberg Rassy, etc, etc and offer to share your wiring designs and switch discoveries. Because at the moment they all seem to be using separate switches for each bank. In fact, most of them have been doing so for several years.

 

[geem]

Last year I had a catastrophic battery failure. My solar reg failed whilst i was back in the UK. The batteries boiled dry. I realised I had a problem when I returned as they were red hot so i disconnected the batteries. As I was doing so, one exploded covering my with acid. As far as I can see the battery didnt know what switching arrangement was down stream of it so it didnt really care if it was connected to a 1,b,2 switch or some fancy electronics.
From what I can see massive over charging is a great way of causing a battery explosion. A failed alternator reg could do if it failed in such a way to provide full amps to fully charged batteries. Since on most boats you can isolate the bank and run on the alternate bank I dont see the problem with 1,b,2 switching

 

[rogerthebodger]

No, i'm referring to the customer i was speaking to. He was driving along and the battery under the seat exploded, he got acid in his face and eyes and had to spend a few days in hospital, luckily he didn't lose his eyesight.

Sorry to hear about your client but I would still like to know what caused the battery to explode as would mode transit users and Ford so it can be prevented if its a potential recurring issue


Started the boat (mobo) and set off on a two day trip, everything was fine. Arrived at the first day stopover and switched the engine off to refuel. All the domestic circuits went off too, evidently the domestic circuits were running from the alternator. Restarted the engine by using the "combine" setting of the BlueSea switch that JD uses, everything worked and we moved the boat to its berth for the night. Cleaned all of the terminals and connected to shore power, turning the mains charger on. In the morning, switched the mains charger back on and it was still totally dead. Completed the next 100 mile leg with the switch set to "combine" and the domestic battery disconnected.

The issue you describe could be easy due to a cell shorting and the alternator would then overcharge the remaining cells cooking the whole battery as the alternator would be trying to charge an effective 10 Volt battery to above 14 volts with excessive current. Your mains charger would be trying to do the same.


Not necessarily. The other end of the cable will be connected somewhere, maybe the alternator, solar controller, wind gen'. Unusual, but i've seen it happen with cars.

I cannot see how an alternator( max 60-80A), solar controller(max 20 Amps) or wing generator (max 30 amps) all having quite high internal resistance, could provide the current that could blow a main battery protection fuse that would be a minimum of 200 Amps for any reasonable sized starter motor/windlass. Mine is 800 Amps as my bow thruster max draw is 600 Amps


Batteries do explode. However, that isn't something that i actually raised as it isn't really the reason for fitting better switching circuits. That was something random that JD threw in and i addressed.

Yes but you did raise it with regard to your clients transit van

Probably true of many things, but the system i suggested wouldn't be the cheapest solution, a 1-2-both would probably be the cheapest. A BEP 1-2-both switch costs roughly the same as a trio of BEP contour switches and a Victron VSR. The cabling and labour for three switches would be a tiny bit more, but in the grand scheme of owning a boat there isn't enough difference to worry about.


I don't see too much difference in the use of a 1.2.both or in my case 2 of them as apposed to 3 separate switches. Mine are labeled as all should if different crew could operate them.
I do know one of the issues that kept being raised was the switching through off when the engine was running thus blowing the alternator diodes. This of cause could also happen with your setup.

Where you only have a single charging setup a VSR would be useful but if that single charging setup fails the VSR will not help. I have multiply charging devices feeding separate battery banks house and engine and my 2 1,2,both switches connected so I can combine or separate as I wish. Even my house bank can be split into 2 separate banks if any battery in a has a shorted circuited cell thus pulling the voltage of that bank down.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Last year I had a catastrophic battery failure. My solar reg failed whilst i was back in the UK. The batteries boiled dry. I realised I had a problem when I returned as they were red hot so i disconnected the batteries. As I was doing so, one exploded covering my with acid. As far as I can see the battery didnt know what switching arrangement was down stream of it so it didnt really care if it was connected to a 1,b,2 switch or some fancy electronics.
From what I can see massive over charging is a great way of causing a battery explosion. A failed alternator reg could do if it failed in such a way to provide full amps to fully charged batteries. Since on most boats you can isolate the bank and run on the alternate bank I dont see the problem with 1,b,2 switching

I had a similar situation with out the exploding battery but my solar regulator cooked by battery while I was away from the boat.

On my current boat I have 3 banks of solar panels/regulators 2 are connect to 2 separated domestic banks with the regulators set to cut off at about 13.6 volts. the 3 bank is connect through a PWM regulator set at 14.4 volts. as this is connected to the output side of ny 1.2.both switch when that is in the off position I only get charge current from my 2 lower controlled panels.

My engine start battery also has its own small solar panel regulator to keep it topped up to about 13.6 volts but can be charger fully when both of my 1,2 both switched are on both as all charging current goes to all batteries.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Last year I had a catastrophic battery failure. My solar reg failed whilst i was back in the UK. The batteries boiled dry. I realised I had a problem when I returned as they were red hot so i disconnected the batteries. As I was doing so, one exploded covering my with acid. As far as I can see the battery didnt know what switching arrangement was down stream of it so it didnt really care if it was connected to a 1,b,2 switch or some fancy electronics.
From what I can see massive over charging is a great way of causing a battery explosion. A failed alternator reg could do if it failed in such a way to provide full amps to fully charged batteries. Since on most boats you can isolate the bank and run on the alternate bank I dont see the problem with 1,b,2 switching

Overcharging is a great way of producing hydrogen, creating sparks by disconnecting battery cables is a great way to blow batteries up. Earlier this year my solar controller decided i had a 24v domestic bank, which boiled the batteries nicely. My Co alarm went off and alerted me of the problem, perhaps we should put Co alarms in the battery compartments.

No switching arrangement will protect us from all possible failures onboard. The 1-2-both switch offered improvements to only having a single battery, i think the BlueSea switch went further by taking away some of the human interaction, it has a couple of limitations that are worth noting. Separate switches eliminate the limitations of the BlueSea switch, but there can still be circumstances where something goes wrong and you're left short of power, or with no power at all.

There is nothing inherently dangerous in using either system, none of them will cause your batteries to explode, your wife to run off with the milk man or a plague of locusts to descend upon your boat. All you have to do is consider what might go wrong and how you'd deal with it if it did happen. Fit a system that deals with as many of those possible failures as you can. If you're happy to have a 1-2-both switch, that's your choice.

 

[rogerthebodger]

The AA, RAC and Greenflag are all eagerly awaiting your phone call to tell them what batteries you use, because at this moment in time, battery problems are the most common reason for a call out. In 2014 the RAC alone attended 450,000 battery related callouts. Way back in 2006 they attended over 130,000 vehicles with batteries that needed replacing !!

{/quote}

I think you will find that most of those are simply flat batteries. Battery reliability has increased greatly since I han my first car Austin A35 which had a starting handle for when the battery was flat when leaving work on a freezing cold night.

The problem today is mainly all the extra gadgets on cars these days and particularly the electronics that are constantly powered even when the car is not in use. This is why I have manitainance battery chargers on all my classic cars that I don't use much.

 

[ex-Gladys]

I suspect the same is true of AA and Green Flag, but RAC roadside chaps get commission for selling you a new battery...

 

[ColinR]

I have always had 1-2-both but just changed it to BEP cluster. The problem with 1-2-both is that 1. engine start is on the same circuit as house electrics. This is inconvenient in that the chart plotter stops whenever I start the engine as the voltage drops 2. spikes from the same cause. I suspect that my AIS conked out due to this last season. 3. I never use the start battery as I cant be bothered to change the switch just whenever I start the engine.

The BEP means that the circuits are separate so the start battery is used to start the engine and the house batteries for all other systems. Whenever it detects charging they are paralleled so both are charged, then when charging is stopped they are separated again. At least thats what it says on the tin. I spent all day yesterday fitting it, fingers crossed it does what is says.

 

[VicS]

I have always had 1-2-both but just changed it to BEP cluster. The problem with 1-2-both is that 1. engine start is on the same circuit as house electrics. This is inconvenient in that the chart plotter stops whenever I start the engine as the voltage drops 2. spikes from the same cause. I suspect that my AIS conked out due to this last season. 3. I never use the start battery as I cant be bothered to change the switch just whenever I start the engine.

The BEP means that the circuits are separate so the start battery is used to start the engine and the house batteries for all other systems. Whenever it detects charging they are paralleled so both are charged, then when charging is stopped they are separated again. At least thats what it says on the tin. I spent all day yesterday fitting it, fingers crossed it does what is says.

One snag you may find with the BEP cluster is that the emergency combining switch parallels the batteries. This means that you will be unable to leave a duff battery disconnected and run on just the other as you can with your old selector switch.

It would be better if the combining switch paralleled the starter and domestic circuits then you could leave a duff battery isolated.

Check with the wiring diagram of your BEP cluster. It is possible to rewire it to do as I suggest if not already wired like that.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Sorry to hear about your client but I would still like to know what caused the battery to explode as would mode transit users and Ford so it can be prevented if its a potential recurring issue

No idea what caused it Roger, but i don't think it's a common occurrence..

The issue you describe could be easy due to a cell shorting and the alternator would then overcharge the remaining cells cooking the whole battery as the alternator would be trying to charge an effective 10 Volt battery to above 14 volts with excessive current. Your mains charger would be trying to do the same.

It wasn't that, the battery didn't get hot and had absolutely no output all all, no doubt something internally fell apart and left the whole thing open circuit.

I cannot see how an alternator( max 60-80A), solar controller(max 20 Amps) or wing generator (max 30 amps) all having quite high internal resistance, could provide the current that could blow a main battery protection fuse that would be a minimum of 200 Amps for any reasonable sized starter motor/windlass. Mine is 800 Amps as my bow thruster max draw is 600 Amps

Strange thing happen, i've seen failed batteries and blown fuses. I've been out to cars where the battery has failed in such a way that all of the electrics are dead and the battery is red hot, the car just cut out whilst driving along the road.

Where you only have a single charging setup a VSR would be useful but if that single charging setup fails the VSR will not help. I have multiply charging devices feeding separate battery banks house and engine and my 2 1,2,both switches connected so I can combine or separate as I wish. Even my house bank can be split into 2 separate banks if any battery in a has a shorted circuited cell thus pulling the voltage of that bank down.

If the boat only has a single charging source that's all i can equip for. Some installations are far more complex and a different arrangement has to be employed, the diagram i posted was for the most basic system. My own boat has three charging sources, two battery banks, battery and solar monitoring etc. Like you, i have a different wiring arrangement, because my equipment demands it.

No system fits every boat, as i know you're aware of.