“Roger” or “Copy” or neither

[Mark-1]

This one?

It wasn't that documentary, but from context I think it was the "AR" interpretation from your vid.

The context was far more emphatic. Two old boys who'd done the job said "We didn't know what the fuss was, that's what he meant, we used to see that mistake all the time.".

 

[Mark-1]

Why would he say ETA Santiago and then use the airport code? His conclusion makes no sense.

Wheras Stendec makes perfect sense!

Seemingly you'd expect AR at the end of the transmission. So if we assume AR is highly likely it's not much of a leap to assume the airport code is the missing bit.

It also explains why your old trainers didn't know beciase they likely didn't know the airport code or perhaps it had even changed.

 

[Mark-1]

My partner (of two years) has never been sailing so I try to give her the basic info without "mansplaining". One bit was when I said "never ever use "roger" on the radio. With that I called Falmouth coastguard, only to have her acknowledge "roger".

Just out of interest why not use roger? It appears in the doc above.

 

[jbweston]

Other factors that affects how formal and precise radio calls need to be are (a) how safety critical are the transmissions and (b) how busy is the channel likely to be.

Air traffic control is safety critical, with messages that contain instructions that must be followed. Which make it important that they use precise terminology understood internationally and with unambiguous ways of signalling that the recipient not only understands the message right but will comply with it. Brevity, unambiguity and rules about what the recipient must read back before ATC will move on. All this hardly ever happens with leisure VHF calls so there isn't the same pressing need for formality and standardisation. Nor for rigourous training before anyone is allowed to use the radio.

Also the density of traffic on maritime VHF in most places is far less than a busy ATC channel. So some of umming and arring and 'Yes, I got that OK, roger' and the 'Have a good watch' sign offs don't delay the next guy needing his landing clearance.

If any of us were wanting to fly into New York on this day we'd be grateful for some professional radio discipline:
A busy day at New York Approach

That's very different from when I call my home marina asking if they have a guy spare to send down to the fuel pontoon.

 

[chrisclin]

Listening to the professionals communicating between ships and Forth Nav it's noticeable that no-one uses 'Over' or 'Out'. I have never heard anyone overcalling, it is pretty obvious when someone has finished and it's time for the other party to respond. Even the lifeboats don't do it when they're calling the coastguard.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

It wasn't that documentary, but from context I think it was the "AR" interpretation from your vid.

The context was far more emphatic. Two old boys who'd done the job said "We didn't know what the fuss was, that's what he meant, we used to see that mistake all the time.".

Just did a little digging as the ICAO code idea is interesting. The problem is that it wasn't published until the 1950s. But it is a hell of a coincidence!

 

[Arcady]

When we nattered on the fishing boats, the standard reply when a conversation was finished was. Gone me.

I listened to a VHF conversation in Gaelic just a few weeks ago, which was ended, somewhat improbably, with the phrase “okey-dokey, cheerio”. I found it somehow vaguely endearing!

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Listening to the professionals communicating between ships and Forth Nav it's noticeable that no-one uses 'Over' or 'Out'. I have never heard anyone overcalling, it is pretty obvious when someone has finished and it's time for the other party to respond. Even the lifeboats don't do it when they're calling the coastguard.

I hear "Out" after weather reports or security broadcast from Valencia all the time.

 

[Mark-1]

Listening to the professionals communicating between ships and Forth Nav it's noticeable that no-one uses 'Over' or 'Out'. I have never heard anyone overcalling, it is pretty obvious when someone has finished and it's time for the other party to respond. Even the lifeboats don't do it when they're calling the coastguard.

A pilot made that point to me - over/out are pretty redundant.

Maybe a hang over from morse and poor transmission quality when you weren't always sure if the other guy had finished or you missed a bit.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

A pilot made that point to me - over/out are pretty redundant.

Maybe a hang over from morse and poor transmission quality when you weren't always sure if the other guy had finished or you missed a bit.

Here is another confirming that for VHF over is hardly ever needed but out is always used at the end of blind transmissions. Different if using HF but those days are gone in most of the world.

 

[john_morris_uk]

can we do it in morse?

I confess I am one of those sad people who can.

 

[johnalison]

I called my MiL by link call once to tell her we were on our way home. We hadn’t coached her in any way, so the initial conversation was a bit stilted, but she soon got the hang of it and really enjoyed it.

 

[zoidberg]

A busy day at New York Approach

Yes, she's 'doing a great job'....

....which reminds me of a 'wenwe'.

At RAF St Mawgan in the early 70s, once home of the Mighty Hunter and now Newquay International, for a while we had a number of WRAF Air Traffickers polishing their pro skills before being posted to some Northumbrian moorland concrete dugout. One such, who briefly became famous right across NATO for a few weeks, did shifts as 'Talkdown Controller' ( Ground Controlled Approach, or 'GCA' ). She was very, very good....

.....but her voice, over the R/T, was honeyed sex-on-a-stick. She sounded like Marilyn Munroe singing 'Happy Birthday Mister President'.

We locals were very aware, of course, but didn't require more than our fair share of pre-booked 'GCA approaches'. Not so, fastjet crews from the east - such as Yeovilton, Coningsby, Cottesmore, Wittering, Binbrook.... and even USAF crews from Upper Heyford, Dutch and RAFG crews from even further east. Even a couple of Vulcans! All booking 'Practice Diversions with GCA' at St Mawgan.

After a while, the Senior ATCO wing commander, peering at the monthly stats, realised 'something was going on'. His questions to various aircrew evinced only blank stares. "Dunno what you're on about, sir!" But, being an ould scrote, he knew from the shifty eyes that 'there was an issue'. Eventually, he borrowed a set of headphones, sat at a spare radar console, and listened in. Her procedures, corrections and timing were impeccable. She was 'spot on'....
.... but, uncharacteristically, most of the aircrew weren't flying to her instructions. They all seemed to wallow all the way down, as if they weren't paying much heed to the directions, but merely listening them. and flying a rough ould sort-of visual approach - which was no problem, as mostly the weather and visibility was fine.

The penny dropped. The visitors had come not so much to practice a 'ground controlled approach' as to just listen to her sexy honeyed voice, the tale of which had spread far and wide! Swiftly - and with considerable regret, for the lady was really very good at her job, she was shipped off PDQ to take up her designated role as 'intercept controller' working down 'The Hole' buried deep under Northumberland.

We held a 'Going Away' party....

 

[Buck Turgidson]

on glideslope, left of centreline correcting..........mr president

 

[William_H]

I’m led to believe that “Roger” is used in aviation comms. It has a very specific meaning which I’m told is - “Communication is received and understood.” with emphasis on understood.

My experience in aviation in Oz is that after being given a direction the receiving station responds with just the call sign. I have never heard Roger in aviation radio.
Strangely our local Sea Search and Rescue have changed to Romeo rather than Roger. ol'will

 

[Skylark]

Someone mentioned Q codes

https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Get on the Air/Comm w Other Hams-Q Signals.pdf

There are a lot of other commonly used abbreviations used when keying Morse.

AR can mean end of message but also used as All Received.

K is an invitation to respond. KN is for a particular station to respond. DE is from or this is.

A signal report comprises RST, readability scale 1-5, signal strength scale 1-9 and Tone scale 1-9.

73 sounds nice in Morse and is the equivalent of regards.

 

[ylop]

Strangely our local Sea Search and Rescue have changed to Romeo rather than Roger. ol'will

To acknowledge receipt or for the phonetic R? Romeo has been NATO, ICAO and ITU recommended word for R since the 50s!

 

[Mark-1]

To acknowledge receipt or for the phonetic R? Romeo has been NATO, ICAO and ITU recommended word for R since the 50s!

I wondered that but concluded it can safely be both, you'd always work it out from the context.

 

[ylop]

I wondered that but concluded it can safely be both, you'd always work it out from the context.

If the comms are clear I think you probably can, but of course the point of the standardised words are to remove ambiguity when comms are not clear, non-native English speakers are involved etc.

My understanding (which may be wrong) is “R” is/was morse shorthand for saying received. That makes sense because it’s an awful lot quicker to send. Then when voice comms arrive people trained this way sat Rodger on voice calls - although there doesn’t seem to be any benefit there over “Received”. In the first half of the 20th century countries all developed their own standards, and as difficulties emerged international harmonisation settled on one particular flavour that actually worked well across different speakers, with poor comms etc. Romeo was the chosen word. Rodger may have survived by/for those who didnt like Recieved for whatever reason. The fact nobody seems to have switched to Romeo as an acknowledgement of receipt is a sign that using one of the letter words for a common non-spelling task is probably not ideal.

 

[wonkywinch]

And the morse for R easy to remember ... dit darrrrh dit.