Size matters

[Hallberg-Rassy]

one of my pet dislikes is people calling Ireland, Éire or the Republic of Ireland ROI etc..., I am aware that it is usually through a lack of knowledge

Is this is North/South thing?

Eire is the name in the constitution (no idea how to do the acute on the E).

The 'Hell' book and the idea of Irish slavery to N America has pretty much been debunked critically and academically, however, it is often cited in racist neo-nazi websites ... precisely to detract from the African experience.

Many Scots were also sold or sold themselves into indentured service in the Americas (many of both went willing to exploit the financial opportunities. Having read Johnson's of having travelled aroud the highlands, and having watched Man of Aran (which was only in the 1930s), it's a wonder both nations were not tripping over each others lives, out for a life in the Sun.

Now, paradoxically, it's only the Super Rich who get to go.

Without a shred of evidence, nor a single citation, he asserts that...

Sean O’Callaghan was at least considerate when he warned his readers on page nine of To Hell or Barbados that he was not a historian. Indeed a brief review of his bibliography reveals a penchant for sensationalism, fantasy, pop journalism and exaggeration.

O’Callaghan was evidently frustrated that peer reviewed historians are in unanimous agreement that indentured servitude and forced labour, while also a form of bondage, unfreedom and exploitation, cannot, and should not, be conflated with racialised chattel slavery. Nevertheless O’Callaghan was determined to sensationalise and thus discarded all pretence of a historical methodology when he assumed that, despite having no evidence, that Irish deportees were transported on “slave ships” to the West Indies in exactly the manner as African slaves.

 

[pandos]

.......

Eire is the name in the constitution (no idea how to do the acute on the E).
.......

The Constitution declares that "[the] name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland" (Article 4).

Constitution of Ireland

(You need to scroll down...)


(To make fadas...the thing over the e,... on a laptop hold the key to the right of the space bar. At the time you press the letter key. No idea how to make them on android)

Some of O'Clleaghans book is possibly sensationalised, I really do not know....but sufficient of it remains to be truly disturbing and rings true based on historical records and what is generaly accepted to be historically accurate concerning what occurred in Ireland.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

So what didn't you like, that I used the Irish name, or that I couldn't do the fadas?

Fact check: ‘Irish slaves’ meme repeats discredited article, looks like I'm not on my own in this department.

Online The “Irish slave” myth has been widely discredited

Claiming the Irish experience of indentured servitude was chattel slavery is a misrepresentation of history.

“The principle aim of this propaganda, which aligns with that of the international far-right, is to empty the history of the transatlantic slave trade of its racial element”

Debunking a Myth: The Irish Were Not Slaves, Too

Historians say the idea of Irish slaves is based on a misreading of history and that the distortion is often politically motivated. Far-right memes have taken off online and are used as racist barbs against African-Americans.

FactCheck: No, hundreds of thousands of Irish people were not sold as slaves in the 17th century

Verdict: FALSE. Irish servants were not legally property, they could go to courts with complaints of ill-treatment and had a contract for their labour.

Were There Irish Slaves in America, Too?

Questionable sources maintain that the plight of so-called "Irish slaves" in early America was worse than that of African slaves. Historians beg to differ.

The curious origins of the ‘Irish slaves’ myth

Popular among racists, white supremacists, neo-Nazis, white nationalists and neo-confederate groups, the “Irish slave” trope is often accompanied by statements to the effect of, “Our ancestors suffered and we got over it, why can’t you?”

 

[pandos]

To: Hallberg Rassy

You were writing in english therefore the correct word to use is Ireland.

Thats why the BBC and politicians all over the world use that label. It is simply the correct name to use when using the English language.

The endless fact checking of the slave issue is meaningless.

This topic grew on my saying that the raid on Baltimore was trivial in comparison to what went on in Ireland around that time.

Your source confirms the forced transportation over many years of Irish people to work in the Carribean, but takes issue with the cause of its ending and the nature accomodations aboard the ships.

I said the book was disturbing, it was.

Is it totally accurate.?..I do not know... Is there some truth in it ?. I think there is.

Who's agenda is driving the debunking of the so called myth?.. I do not know, but there are many trash books all over the world and mad notions which are simply ignored.


End.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

Short answer, if we can agree the books 90% garbage and almost 100% unreferenced ... which is the concerns of actually historians ... I'll come to a compromise with you.

Mary Shelley's Frankenstien was also a disturbing book to its readers. So where the Brothers Grimm fairy stories.

You're not an alt-right oirishman living in a world where true is fake and fake is true and George Soros is financing a global conspiracy to discredit the Hibernian Holocaust, are you?

Read the references and decide for yourself.

It was universally rejected because it failed to meet accepted standards of factuality.

For me, calling Ireland by its Irish rather than Anglish name is showing respect to its Celtic past. However, culturally, I would agree that Irish society has been long Anglised and, geographically, it's part of the British Isles. But that it should be one. An enevitability I very much hope the disaster of Brexit brings on, even if it means the death or exile of the bowler hatted ones.

 

[pandos]

Short answer, if we can agree the books 90% garbage and almost 100% unreferenced ... which is the concerns of actually historians ... I'll come to a compromise with you.

Mary Shelley's Frankenstien was also a disturbing book to its readers. So where the Brothers Grimm fairy stories.

You're not an alt-right oirishman living in a world where true is fake and fake is true and George Soros is financing a global conspiracy to discredit the Hibernian Holocaust, are you?

Read the references and decide for yourself.

It was universally rejected because it failed to meet accepted standards of factuality.

For me, calling Ireland by its Irish rather than Anglish name is showing respect to its Celtic past. However, culturally, I would agree that Irish society has been long Anglised and, geographically, it's part of the British Isles. But that it should be one. An enevitability I very much hope the disaster of Brexit brings on, even if it means the death or exile of the bowler hatted ones.

It would be more respectful to use the name we choose in the constitution.

Having inaccurately quoted article 4 to defend your use of the incorrect term, to then follow this by referring to showing respect is simply an example of being unable to give up an argument.

I am unable to unravel some of your post...

The reference to bowler hats and Soros is just nuts stuff.

The poor writing of a book does not remove the existence of what were Irish slaves in the Carribean shiped there by the English.

That they were technically or legally not slaves, at that time is a difference of language and semantics and of no import at this stage, except to those who wish to gloss over atrocious actions of an English Parliament and ruling class.

As the word slave is generally understood in modern language they were slaves...

This guy is more eloquent and patient than I am...



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAJegQIERAB&usg=AOvVaw0WAOzLFENTKqdoyM503o5j

We might trash this out over a few pints in Baltimore, County Cork, Ireland ...some day...

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

It would be more respectful to use the name we choose in the constitution.

You didn't choose either, it stipulates either. I'd equally refer to Japan as Niphon, or Germany as Deutschland (and Spain Espana instead of España as I don't know how to type ñ), if doing so had or added literary value. Often irony.

Using foreign language terminology, or loan words, is common place in English and perfectly acceptable.

As any literary cognoscenti would confirm to you.

"Ireland" is problematic because it also refers to part of the UK. Geographically, it's the entire island, not the 26 states. I was referring to the ROI.

I am unable to unravel some of your post...

The reference to bowler hats and Soros is just nuts stuff.

Yup, it's a reflection of the kind of crazy, conspiratorial thinking in the White supremist, alt-right that was propogated the Irish slavery myth stuff.

The poor writing of a book does not remove the existence of what were Irish slaves in the Carribean shiped there by the English.

I disagree, if you're publishing something, circulating and reinforcing ideas, you have a responsibility to ensure they are true, and should be able to validate them with references.

Welcome to the C16/17th when still be alive after infancy was a profit and indentured service or slavery ... wait for it ... was actually an improvement in one's circumstances (eg it was commonplace for people to sell themselves or family members into slavery to avoid starving to death). Same all over the world.

The Burkean is "an online publication founded and run by university students in Ireland".

I'll wait until they graduate before accepting their opinions.

I suggest finding better, fully grown up references.

 

[pandos]

...
"Ireland" is problematic because it also refers to part of the UK. Geographically, it's the entire island, not the 26 states. I was referring to the ROI.
...

Firstly you said I was incorrect because you misunderstood or deliberately misquoted the relevant part of the Constitution, then you claimed to be showing respect for the Gaelic past by using Éire, then you go into using borrowed words etc.

Now we get a new excuse, probably the real reason you do not use Ireland: because you mistakenly think that some part of Ireland is part of the UK. ( or are you making a territorial claim on behalf of the UK)

IRELAND is not part of the UK, and no part of the UK is part of Ireland.

The Island of Ireland is a land mass, which forms part of the British Isles with both major islands touched by the Irish Sea, those are geographical terms, they are simply labels which have no political importance and are largely not controversial.

Northern Ireland is a country which is part of the UK, which I take to mean the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland,

Northern Ireland, contains six of the counties of Ulster, and it occupies most of the north eastern part of the island of Ireland,

Ireland is an Independent Sovereign Republic, which comprises 26 counties and covers the remainder of the island of Ireland.

There are two official languages in Ireland Irish and English, when using the English language the appropriate name for State is Ireland, if using Irish then Éire is appropriate.

Please accept that when using the English language the name of the country is Ireland, (which is different to Northern Ireland) , I consider that to use the inappropriate term, except through a lack of knowledge. to be disrespectful.

 

[pandos]

Content deleted

True colours are confirmed.

 

[Scarboroughsloop]

And this relates to the size of boats in the Jester Challenge how? Seriously, not the place for such rule following, FFS!

 

[SaltIre]

I don't think Irish people take exception to referring to the the islands as the British isles...

I suspect Blondie Hasler might have agreed - he was born in Dublin.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

Cements my view that yellow boats are cool ?

But we agree, Yellow, 29ft 11' 1/32 boats are cool, yea?

Otherwise my Jester boat buying criteria list was for nothing ?

 

[SaltIre]

Agreeing with yourself is OK.

 

[PhillM]

I think joker is a great idea... I want to go but I have a 35 footer (34 foot 8) . I cannot go out and buy a sub 30 toot boat just to be in a gang.. in any case I want to be able to sail to and in the Med with my better half and I have nursed my boat back from the brink having bought it as a project.

I will probably tag along anyway ...but I hate feeling illigitimate also.

But I accept the notion of the sub 30 foot rule and the ethos, but wanting to tag along is not wanting to destroy, it is simply likely to be more fun to have others in company on both ends...and to have a date to aim towards, etc...

I also suggest that the second or third solo challenge in a 30 foot boat is less of an achievement than a first solo in a 35 foot boat....


So if anyone is thinking of a joker subclass I'd be very interested...

Why don't we arrange boat swaps... I'll do the Jester in mine, then next time around, we can swap boats and you can have a go. I'll even sail yours to the Med for you, while are away.

 

[pandos]

Why don't we arrange boat swaps... I'll do the Jester in mine, then next time around, we can swap boats and you can have a go. I'll even sail yours to the Med for you, while are away.

Nice idea, but I have been accepted for the JBC and the JAC, ( I intend to use the JBC as a shakedown of sailor and boat)

Once measured on deck, which is in accordance with the powers that be's "non rule", my boat is over 30 feet, but sufficiently short enough for the 2021 challenges

Look forward to it now but suddenly June seems very close indeed...

 

[PhillM]

Nice idea, but I have been accepted for the JBC and the JAC, ( I intend to use the JBC as a shakedown of sailor and boat)

Once measured on deck, which is in accordance with the powers that be's "non rule", my boat is over 30 feet, but sufficiently short enough for the 2021 challenges

Look forward to it now but suddenly June seems very close indeed...

Yep, very close indeed, is exactly what I thought. Still lots of prep to do.... hopefully see you @ Mayflower in June.