Greece to extend territorial waters to 12nm

[Chris_Robb]

2031? Fat fingers?

I cannot see that.... fat eyes?

 

[Tony Cross]

It was the Greek colonels that invaded Cyprus. The Turks stepped in protect their own people.
I have little sympathy for the Greeks on this matter, and also the ridiculous invasion of Turkey at the end of the first world war. They chose the wrong guy to pick a fight with..... Attaturk.

The very deep hatred of Turkey by Greece will continue hinder negotiations as it has for many years. The story of the atrocities by Ali Pasha against the Greek people are difficult to forget. I think i was Rod Heikel who wrote about it in his Guide to the Ionion. A particularly horrible description of a hollow steel bull with open mouth that roasted a person locked inside. A fire lit underneath caused screame af agony to issue from the mouth of the bull for the ammusement of his guests. Actually i may be confused, i think it was Ali Pasha.

There is no point in selectively quoting bits of history to suit your own agenda. The long history of this part of the world is much more complex than these would suggest. There simply is no moral high ground that Greece or Turkey can stand on, both have behaved appallingly towards the other at many times over the centuries since 1453.

At its root the Greece/Turkey conflict is a religious one. Attaturk did much to defuse these religious tensions by making Turkey a secular country, with Haghia Sophia a UNESCO world heritage site and a museum the open sore in Greece over the loss of Orthodox Christianity's mother church was at least bandaged over. Erdogan's quest to make Turkey an Islamic state, and especially converting Haghia Sophia into a mosque once more, has ripped off those bandages and Greece is once again bleeding over what they see as a loss of their capital city and holiest site. The conflict of the two religions is once more at the forefront of both side's thinking.

The fault for the modern tensions must be placed squarely at Erdogan's feet. Greece is a child who has had their favourite toy taken away and for over a hundred years Turkey has been the adult, doing nothing to awaken Greek sensibilities over what they (Greece) still see as an occupation. Now though, with Erdogan's support waning at home he's chosen to poke Greece where he knows it will hurt and use the increased tension between the two old enemies to bolster nationalist support for him at home.

Cyprus is just a proxy, the row over oil survey rights is also a proxy. Erdogan does not want a diplomatic solution, he does not want compromise, he does not want common sense to prevail. He needs to maintain the tension between Turkey and Greece because only that bolsters his support at home. He's probably crossed his Rubicon already, it's going to be near impossible now for him to come to any kind of diplomatic resolution that doesn't have the appearance of Turkey having backed down.

I do however think there is a solution to the current row over survey rights. Greece should unilaterally grant Turkey permission to survey on its continental shelf but not (at this time) to exploit anything discovered - and there may of course be nothing of value discovered there. This would immediately defuse the stand off over the Turkish survey and remove a big sabre that Erdogan is rattling, yet Greece would have given nothing of any substance away.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Tony Cross. We must differ and so be it. I believe it is about energy and not religion. Greek religion is basically an orthodox form the same as is practiced in most Western countries fro Russia via europe to USA . Yet only Greece has such a hatred that can only come from direct experience. The change in Cristian to Islam of the church and the occupation of Constantinople is a continuation of that experience. Turkey knows full well that it will get Nowhere in negotiations with Greece, unless a real threat of war is put on the table. I have read of the Turkish atrocities against Greece. You say that Greece committed similar atrocities to Turkey. If that is the case then they should both hang their heads in shame and a pox on both of them. But then i recall certain actions of genicide from Turkey against other neighbours. So I rest my case that religion is a minor factor compared with being a neighbour of a country with unbounded violence from experience.

 

[BurnitBlue]

BTW. My last word on this because as a person without a religous bone in my body it is incomprehensable to me to go to war over which religion is the best. A phrase from Crocodile Dundee comes to mind. "It is like two fleas fighting over who owns the dog".

 

[Tony Cross]

Tony Cross. We must differ and so be it. I believe it is about energy and not religion. Greek religion is basically an orthodox form the same as is practiced in most Western countries fro Russia via europe to USA . Yet only Greece has such a hatred that can only come from direct experience. The change in Cristian to Islam of the church and the occupation of Constantinople is a continuation of that experience. Turkey knows full well that it will get Nowhere in negotiations with Greece, unless a real threat of war is put on the table. I have read of the Turkish atrocities against Greece. You say that Greece committed similar atrocities to Turkey. If that is the case then they should both hang their heads in shame and a pox on both of them. But then i recall certain actions of genicide from Turkey against other neighbours. So I rest my case that religion is a minor factor compared with being a neighbour of a country with unbounded violence from experience.

BTW. My last word on this because as a person without a religous bone in my body it is incomprehensable to me to go to war over which religion is the best. A phrase from Crocodile Dundee comes to mind. "It is like two fleas fighting over who owns the dog".

That last comment reveals why you feel the way you do in your earlier comment. If you have no religion then you cannot appreciate the religious aspect to the Greece/Turkey conflict, not just of the present day but pretty much continuously since 1453. Greece is a deeply religious country where the word of the church is often more important to Greeks than the word of the government. What little I know of Islam leads me to think it's pretty much the same for them.

So deeply do Greeks believe that Haghia Sophia and the city of Constantine are Greek and under Islamic occupation that all TV weather forecasts here label still Istanbul as Constantinople and it's called Constantinople by most older (and many younger) Greeks. The perceived Islamic occupation of Orthodox Christianity's mother church is very much at the heart of the problems that Greece has with Turkey.

 

[newtothis]

A full explanation of this debate can be found here:

 

[BurnitBlue]

Oops. I new it was foolish to declare my last word on this subject. I have been continualy fascinated by an aspect of this discussion from my youth. Namely the mystery surrounding ancient structures. It started with the pyramids. So many theories about how they were built by the ancient Egyptians and still no solution. I decided that if they were impossible to build with the tools they had available then perhaps it is logical to realise they were not built by them but were "found items" built by a much earlier civilization. This led me to consider why the Gods of Greece and Rome (so many ) were giants. Even Athenia was a giant. I wondered whether the parthenon belonged to the same era pre ancient Egyptian by many thousands of years. I think it does because it is a hallmark of nearly all ancient structures that various religions always destroyed the original then modified the rubble. It is going on today after the dynamite destruction by ISIS in Iraq and the Taliban in Afganistan.
When Tony Cross brought up Hagia Sophia as original Christian it sounded alarm bells about my passion for Levant and Inca pre known civilizations that it would send the thread into what some on here would consider to be cloud cuckoo land. This is a yachting forum so I knew it would not be allowed. Hence my early withdrawel.

So my question is "who built the original Parthenon? Who built the original Hagia Sophia. " Thank goodness John Morris is unlikely to read this thread or we will hear the official line with no romance and talk of Giants and a green Sahara with megolithic structures built by a race of man with the tools to do the job.

 

[grumpygit]

That last comment reveals why you feel the way you do in your earlier comment. If you have no religion then you cannot appreciate the religious aspect to the Greece/Turkey conflict, not just of the present day but pretty much continuously since 1453. Greece is a deeply religious country where the word of the church is often more important to Greeks than the word of the government. What little I know of Islam leads me to think it's pretty much the same for them.

So deeply do Greeks believe that Haghia Sophia and the city of Constantine are Greek and under Islamic occupation that all TV weather forecasts here label still Istanbul as Constantinople and it's called Constantinople by most older (and many younger) Greeks. The perceived Islamic occupation of Orthodox Christianity's mother church is very much at the heart of the problems that Greece has with Turkey.

For me and in my opinion I believe the rabid dog Erdogan is primarily war mongering for political gain, oil/gas/religion is also a stick to beat the Greeks with and Erdogan is the aggressor in the first instance. I agree the Greeks are very pious people but I don't believe this is the main reason, I think sovereignty is the main reason.
As some are using history to state who owns what, how far do we go back? Asia Minor, the Greeks were there but the Turk's and Turkey didn't exist so is Turkey the upstart nation?
For anyone who is interested, here is a little history refresher. Then you can draw your own conclusions to why the Greeks are so aggrieved and wanting to keep their sovereignty in tact.

History of Turkey - Wikipedia

 

[Irish Rover]

There is no point in selectively quoting bits of history to suit your own agenda. The long history of this part of the world is much more complex than these would suggest. There simply is no moral high ground that Greece or Turkey can stand on, both have behaved appallingly towards the other at many times over the centuries since 1453.

At its root the Greece/Turkey conflict is a religious one. Attaturk did much to defuse these religious tensions by making Turkey a secular country, with Haghia Sophia a UNESCO world heritage site and a museum the open sore in Greece over the loss of Orthodox Christianity's mother church was at least bandaged over. Erdogan's quest to make Turkey an Islamic state, and especially converting Haghia Sophia into a mosque once more, has ripped off those bandages and Greece is once again bleeding over what they see as a loss of their capital city and holiest site. The conflict of the two religions is once more at the forefront of both side's thinking.

The fault for the modern tensions must be placed squarely at Erdogan's feet. Greece is a child who has had their favourite toy taken away and for over a hundred years Turkey has been the adult, doing nothing to awaken Greek sensibilities over what they (Greece) still see as an occupation. Now though, with Erdogan's support waning at home he's chosen to poke Greece where he knows it will hurt and use the increased tension between the two old enemies to bolster nationalist support for him at home.

Cyprus is just a proxy, the row over oil survey rights is also a proxy. Erdogan does not want a diplomatic solution, he does not want compromise, hie does not want common sense to prevail. He needs to maintain the tension between Turkey and Greece because only that bolsters his support at home. He's probably crossed his Rubicon already, it's going to be near impossible now for him to come to any kind of diplomatic resolution that doesn't have the appearance of Turkey having backed down.

I do however think there is a solution to the current row over survey rights. Greece should unilaterally grant Turkey permission to survey on its continental shelf but not (at this time) to exploit anything discovered - and there may of course be nothing of value discovered there. This would immediately defuse the stand off over the Turkish survey and remove a big sabre that Erdogan is rattling, yet Greece would have given nothing of any substance away.

As you correctly mention Atatürk declared Turkey to be a secular state and it essentially remained so up until relatively recently. Internationally this showed Turkey in a very positive light and, no doubt facilitated it's membership of NATO and being accepted as a candidate for membership of the EU. What is less appreciated is that it led to a a suppression of religious freedom in Turkey and deliberate discrimination against devout Muslims for more than 90 years. The AK party is unashamedly a Muslim party and has used its power to restore those lost freedoms with maybe a bit of interest on top. Hagia Sofia was not about thumbing his nose at Greece. It was about restoring the pre Atatürk status quo and giving his powerbase some more payback. Erdoğan has traditionally relied on the religious vote to get him elected but after the loss of İstanbul in the local elections he realises he needs a wider support before the 2023 election. Winning back some control in the Aegean would be very popular with secular nationalists as would having TRNC recognised internationally. We're going to be in election mode for the next 3 years so buckle up it could be a bumpy ride.

 

[BurnitBlue]

For me and in my opinion I believe the rabid dog Erdogan is primarily war mongering for political gain, oil/gas/religion is also a stick to beat the Greeks with and Erdogan is the aggressor in the first instance. I agree the Greeks are very pious people but I don't believe this is the main reason, I think sovereignty is the main reason.
As some are using history to state who owns what, how far do we go back? Asia Minor, the Greeks were there but the Turk's and Turkey didn't exist so is Turkey the upstart nation?
For anyone who is interested, here is a little history refresher. Then you can draw your own conclusions to why the Greeks are so aggrieved and wanting to keep their sovereignty in tact.

History of Turkey - Wikipedia

I wish I had seen that video before I started this thread. My interest has always been on the megalithic structures and lost civilisations rather than the politics. That video filled in the gap in an easier way to understand. Thanks Grumpy.

 

[dulls]

BTW. My last word on this because as a person without a religous bone in my body it is incomprehensable to me to go to war over which religion is the best. A phrase from Crocodile Dundee comes to mind. "It is like two fleas fighting over who owns the dog".

People go to war. Religion/No religion still war.

 

[BurnitBlue]

My first question on this thread was to ask how it came about that Greece owned all the islands close to Turkey. The answer of course was because Greece also owned the coastal mainland which is now Turkey. The Otterman Empire grabbed the lot until they were thrown out leaving the islands part of Greece again so close to what became Turkey. So Turkey is now hemmed in from oil an gas energy in the Mediterranean sea. Have I got that right at last. So Turkey does not have a leg to stand on regarding oil exploration in Greek Waters.

 

[grumpygit]

My first question on this thread was to ask how it came about that Greece owned all the islands close to Turkey. The answer of course was because Greece also owned the coastal mainland which is now Turkey. The Otterman Empire grabbed the lot until they were thrown out leaving the islands part of Greece again so close to what became Turkey. So Turkey is now hemmed in from oil an gas energy in the Mediterranean sea. Have I got that right at last. So Turkey does not have a leg to stand on regarding oil exploration in Greek Waters.

This probably should confirm the agreed rights to each country for you, but as you know moods have been changed by the aggressor. Treaty of Lausanne - Wikipedia

 

[sailaboutvic]

This is what I love about this thread and others like it. Brits not having a good word for their country that given them the opportunity to make enough money to finance a life of luxury in another country and retire there but as soon as someone say any thing against their new host country there are up in arms .

 

[Irish Rover]

Op Ed from the Greek prime minister in The Times today.

 

[dulls]

This is what I love about this thread and others like it. Brits not having a good word for their country that given them the opportunity to make enough money to finance a life of luxury in another country and retire there but as soon as someone say any thing against their new host country there are up in arms .

It is a funny sought of hate. Hating the country that educated you, kept you healthy and gave them the opportunity to make a good living.

 

[grumpygit]

This is what I love about this thread and others like it. Brits not having a good word for their country that given them the opportunity to make enough money to finance a life of luxury in another country and retire there but as soon as someone say any thing against their new host country there are up in arms .

Sorry Vic but I don't understand your specific drift to this topic. I've looked back through the threads on this topic and I just can't find from where or why you would make such a statement regarding others. Perhaps you should start another thread on the subject

 

[BurnitBlue]

France (Macron) is sending her Nuclear powered Aircraft carrier to eastern med to defend EU Southern border. (OR Greece maybe) No mention of support ships yet. Why for goodness sake. There are surely enough airfields on the Aegean Islands within striking distance. UK is well placed at Acrotiri on Cyprus. If Boris wanted a slice of the action. Erdagan must be regretting his aggressive stance by now. It's all over folks. Time to go home perhaps. Or the whole situation is getting more and more serious.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Sorry Vic but I don't understand your specific drift to this topic. I've looked back through the threads on this topic and I just can't find from where or why you would make such a statement regarding others. Perhaps you should start another thread on the subject

It's just I been following all the brexit thread as you know and people who moved to Greece and other country haven got a good word to say about the UK even tho leaving the EU isn't good for the UK but even so ,
But when it come to the country they got residency in one way or another , as soon as a subject hits the news they can't wait to stick up for their host country and any other country involved is in the wrong , to the extend now hundred of years of history is being used to justify what's happening between Greece and Turkey .
I guess when the time comes that their host country kicks them out or bring in some law to make life difficult for them then I guess we hear a different view .

 

[grumpygit]

It's just I been following all the brexit thread as you know and people who moved to Greece and other country haven got a good word to say about the UK even tho leaving the EU isn't good for the UK but even so ,
But when it come to the country they got residency in one way or another , as soon as a subject hits the news they can't wait to stick up for their host country and any other country involved is in the wrong , to the extend now hundred of years of history is being used to justify what's happening between Greece and Turkey .
I guess when the time comes that their host country kicks them out or bring in some law to make life difficult for them then I guess we hear a different view .

Vic, may be you should start another topic, " . . . . . . . ." I seem to get your gist but it doesn't seem to suit or fit this topic as it's going completely Off Piste.