Goodwin Sands

[Hallberg-Rassy]

I appreciate that it's not quite East Coast but could not find a closer forum. Is anyone else following the discussion on the dredging of Goodwin Sands? Plans are to dredge two million cubic metres of sand in the marine conservation/war grave zone. Sounds a lot but only 0.2% someone claims.

What dangers do the sands present for small ship, as in typical GRP sailing boats like bilge keelers these days? Most of the wrecks I read of broke up because they were large enough to break their backs.

I remember read that in some weathers, the waves can slam boats up and down on hard sands, but has anyone survived a deliberate beaching?

Not considering playing cricket, nor committing suicide in quick sands, that BBC story is salutary (apparently the director demanded just 10 minutes extra to reshoot a scene and ended up not just losing all their equipment but almost their lives), just wondering how they have taken so many wrecks, and whether they continue to do so.

 

[Concerto]

Sorry this is old news. Dredging the Goodwin Sands

 

[LittleSister]

What dangers do the sands present for small ship, as in typical GRP sailing boats like bilge keelers these days? Most of the wrecks I read of broke up because they were large enough to break their backs.

I remember read that in some weathers, the waves can slam boats up and down on hard sands, but has anyone survived a deliberate beaching?

In my view the Goodwins pose very little danger to sailing boats today, provided that they are properly navigated and not out in conditions where they are not fully under control.

The Goodwins are very well marked by buoys, etc. these days, and GPS and the availability of excellent mapping also allows the modern mariner to know where they are in relation to them.

The prudent mariner would not be anywhere close to the windward or uptide sides of the sands in poor weather. Even in good weather one would keep a respectful distance. (Always think 'How would I keep off the sands if the engine failed now (or rig came down now)'.

Landing on the sands is the potentially safe, but also potentially lethal. The difference is the skipper. The skipper must know exactly what they are doing and the dangers involved, and no one should attempt this in anything but very settled weather, paying very careful attention to the tides and direction of wind and swell.

I recommend a reading of earlier East Coast leisure sailors such as Maurice Griffiths - 'Magic of the Swatchways' - who were more used to going aground on sandbanks - both accidentally and deliberately - than most modern sailors.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

Yes, I was thnking East Coast boats tended to be much more flat bottomed just for the sake of the mud, but that there might be a greater potential risk with modern twin keelers if one keel was to sink and dig in first.

Sorry this is old news. Dredging the Goodwin Sands

Thanks for the link, I hadn't discovered that sub-forum, but discussion is ongoing, and the topic didn't cover sailing near it.

 

[Pye_End]

A couple of accidents have been discussed here in the past. Sand can feel more like concrete with a bit of wave or swell action, so can damage or rip a fin keel off.

The tides are also strong, even soon after a tide turn. It doesn't take much of a break in concentration to end up on the bank.

 

[Tomahawk]

They go walkabout ...quite a lot.
I have known the North Sand Head move by up to half a mile after a storm. And being sand, they are very hard if you bump them.

 

[Gargleblaster]

An intersting complication is that attempting to anchor one day off Broadstairs after I had broken two water pump belts, I found my anchor just dragged along the bottom. I thought it might be a chalk bottom as both teh anchor and chain came up very shiny as though I had been sandpapering them.
By the time I got myself organised the ebb was running and with a South wind I ended up off North Foreland before my anchor held. In the wrong conditions, say flood tide and Northerly gale, particularly NW it would be possible to be pushed onto the sands. Of course in that situation a bit of sail would have allowed a passage down the inner channel.

 

[PilotWolf]

An intersting complication is that attempting to anchor one day off Broadstairs after I had broken two water pump belts, I found my anchor just dragged along the bottom. I thought it might be a chalk bottom as both teh anchor and chain came up very shiny as though I had been sandpapering them.
By the time I got myself organised the ebb was running and with a South wind I ended up off North Foreland before my anchor held. In the wrong conditions, say flood tide and Northerly gale, particularly NW it would be possible to be pushed onto the sands. Of course in that situation a bit of sail would have allowed a passage down the inner channel.

Out of interest was that 2 belts on 1 pump or 2 separate pumps and engines?

W.

 

[Poignard]

In my view the Goodwins pose very little danger to sailing boats today, provided that they are properly navigated and not out in conditions where they are not fully under control.

The Goodwins are very well marked by buoys, etc. these days, and GPS and the availability of excellent mapping also allows the modern mariner to know where they are in relation to them.

The prudent mariner would not be anywhere close to the windward or uptide sides of the sands in poor weather. Even in good weather one would keep a respectful distance. (Always think 'How would I keep off the sands if the engine failed now (or rig came down now)'.

Landing on the sands is the potentially safe, but also potentially lethal. The difference is the skipper. The skipper must know exactly what they are doing and the dangers involved, and no one should attempt this in anything but very settled weather, paying very careful attention to the tides and direction of wind and swell.

I recommend a reading of earlier East Coast leisure sailors such as Maurice Griffiths - 'Magic of the Swatchways' - who were more used to going aground on sandbanks - both accidentally and deliberately - than most modern sailors.

 

[lydiamight]

Fond memories of departing Pegwell Bay back in the 80's on a SRN4 Hovercraft.
Low tide and straight over the Goodwin Sands dodging the wrecks

 

[Gargleblaster]

Out of interest was that 2 belts on 1 pump or 2 separate pumps and engines?

W.

It was 2 belts on one raw water pump. The spare water pump belt that was included when I bought the boat had been well used and snapped as soon as I put it on. I found the panty hose that was in the spares kit was too elastic to turn my water pump.

 

[PilotWolf]

It was 2 belts on one raw water pump. The spare water pump belt that was included when I bought the boat had been well used and snapped as soon as I put it on. I found the panty hose that was in the spares kit was too elastic to turn my water pump.

Did you find cause?

I only asked as some of our pumps had more than one belt on.

W.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

Fond memories of departing Pegwell Bay back in the 80's on a SRN4 Hovercraft.
Low tide and straight over the Goodwin Sands dodging the wrecks

I remember riding on one of those. Could not tell if we went over the sands or not. Impossible to see anything but spray out of the window. With the noise and vibration, it was like being in a washing machine looking out. Crazy vessels really. For some reason, they really caught the imagination of the day. Couldn't imagine one being touted today.

There were some organised trips in them that stopped on the sands.

Really bad VHS tape, so I've tried to jump forward to landing on them about 3:30 but it captures the feel.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

 

[PeterWright]

In my view, the Goodwin Sands remain as treacherous as ever to craft of all sizes - since you can play cricket on them, they obviously dry so, in foul weather, a vessel of any draft can be pounded on them. While the cricket stories (and the BBC one) make it obvious that, in the right weather, you can safely beach a boat there, in heavy weather they will destroy a small boat that gets ashore. I haven't personally witnessed this on the Goodwins but, in the 1960's saw a yacht get on the Deben bar and pound until her keel was slammed through her bottom resulting in rapid sinking and effectively splitting in two, Fortunately, all the Dutch crew on board the yacht managed to swim ashore, so no life lost.

While the Goodwins haven't changed in terms of threat, electronic navigation makes it much easier to avoid the sands nowadays so not many vessels are lost there.

Peter.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

I was curious of the wildlife, the seals, and wondered if you could 'park' a small flat bottomed or bilge keel boat out there as an observation point.

Not looked into the times, legalities, practicalities in any other way. Surprised we'd not yet heard of migrants dying on them.

There's a group down in Namibia doing lifesaving work with them.

 

[seivadnehpets]

You can break your boat on any Lee shore, and the sands would often be almost invisible. You don't want to be on the wrong side of them but if you approach up wind on a calm day a beaching might be considered.
It surely shows how our options are diminishing that this is being discussed!

 

[LittleSister]

I was curious of the wildlife, the seals, and wondered if you could 'park' a small flat bottomed or bilge keel boat out there as an observation point.

Not looked into the times, legalities, practicalities in any other way.

By and large seals would prefer that you kept your distance rather than approach them. (Though they are quite curious creatures, and when they are in their element - the water - they will often gradually come closer and closer to inspect you if you stay still and quiet.)

You can observe them surprisingly closely without landing by either sailing past slowly or by anchoring just off the sands. Only do this in settled weather, and down wind and down tide of the sands. Make sure you understand what the tide is doing, and going to do later, in terms of both (a) tidal height above (i) the charted depths and (ii) your measured depths, and (b) the direction of tidal current.

If you are landing everything becomes rather more critical, and you would need to be confident that you weren't going to be 'parking' your boat on either debris that could damage it or a severe slope that could make it fall over.

 

[Daydream believer]

I ran aground on the Goodwins circa 1975 in my Stella. Passage from Ostend to Burnham on Crouch .Fortunately we bounced off pretty quick , we were fairly good at that as we always seemed to get lots of practice. Got a bit lost, as usual. Bit foggy;. Sure it was the Goodwins because we could hear the Hovercraft wizzing back & forth, but never saw it.

 

[seivadnehpets]

By and large seals would prefer that you kept your distance rather than approach them. (Though they are quite curious creatures, and when they are in their element - the water - they will often gradually come closer and closer to inspect you if you stay still and quiet.)

You can observe them surprisingly closely without landing by either sailing past slowly or by anchoring just off the sands. Only do this in settled weather, and down wind and down tide of the sands. Make sure you understand what the tide is doing, and going to do later, in terms of both (a) tidal height above (i) the charted depths and (ii) your measured depths, and (b) the direction of tidal current.

If you are landing everything becomes rather more critical, and you would need to be confident that you weren't going to be 'parking' your boat on either debris that could damage it or a severe slope that could make it fall over.

I picknicked this year at Horsey Gap within a couple of yards of the seal colony. They seem very unbothered of their human company. It was interesting to see that they leave some of their young on the outside of the colony, suggesting a certain confidence, but as the tide retreats, they periodically move themselves down the beach. They don't want to be too far from water. We really enjoyed their company!