Zero to Hero - are intensive courses any good?

[Shakey]

Was reading Stellagirl's post below about going from comp crew to coastal skipper and two handed racing in two years and it got me thinking.

Are the 'Zero to Hero' Yachtmaster in three month courses any good? I've heard conflicting stories, but most I've heard have been negative.

The worst I heard was from a bloke who'd withdrawn from a well known intensive YM course and asked for his money back for two main reasons:

1. During his exam for his Long Range Certificate he didn't know an answer, admitted so to the examiner and the examiner then told him the answer he wanted to hear and then asked the question again. It was 'common knowledge' that the same examiners examined this school regularly and didn't want to lose work by failing its students. (I am aware that RYA examiners are meant to be random BTW)

2. One of the subjects was 'Classic Boat Maintenance' or something similar. This involved the students spending a week varnishing one of the Principal's yachts.

Are fast track schools cynically exploiting the RYA's minimum requirements to churn out Yachtmasters?

I have met and worked alongside people who have done these courses and they have all seemed competent but somehow lacking in seamanship in some way. It's hard to define, it's like they knew the racing rules but couldn't do an eye splice for example. They could pay lip service to buoyage and marks but couldn't name the light characteristics 'cos their night sailing was the bare minimum required for the qualification and usually done on a long passage. (BTW I do not consider myself the expert on seamanship or sailing!)

It seems to me that these courses are aimed at people looking for a career change who've got a bit of spare time and spare cash to actually do it. They're looking for something that'll change their life and I can't knock 'em for that, I just wonder if these intensive courses are the way to do it or if it adequately sets people up for a career in the marine industry.

Am interested in other forumites' opinions, especially those who've done a fast track.


Post Script: (I am neither an old salt or a fast track YM. I probably fall between the two camps which is why Stellagirl's post got me thinking 'cos I'm in a similar position. For the record, I first set foot in a dinghy in Oct 97, got my CS in Oct 02 and was a keelboat instructor and Med flotilla skipper in Mar 03. No doubt some would consider me an unworthy pretender!)

 

[Haddock]

Well, having gone through old school training myself. I would say that rather than zero to hero they would be more like zero to knowing the basic theory.

Really, in my opinion there is no substitute for experience. Certainly it is fine to do all the theory in one shot, but then you need to get out there and put it all into practice. I have a lifetime at sea and there are things that only experience will tell you, you just cannot bottle it and put it in a course.

So, by all means do the theory at a reputable school, but at the end of it all you are still a novice, an educated one up to a point, but still a novice. Don't expect to be a 'captain among captains'.

That's my opinion and I'm still learning through experience at sea /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Woodentop]

Re: Zero to Hero - The missing bit

I tend to agree that the courses have a flaw.
My observation of a few who have done it is that their skills were good but there was that undefined bit lacking.

Part of the problem is that their sailing was always in a large group with an instructor. The missing bit was being out on a small boat by themselves with no one to turn to.

So one could sum it up as strong on skills but lacking experience, particularly the experience you would expect them to have.

 

[Salty]

YW did a feature on these a couple of issues back: conclusion (somewhat paraphrased) was: good for crash course learning, not good for experience.

Mind you, when I was late-teens, early-twenties I thought I knew it all anyway, and the idea that a short course could get me to a level where I could confidentally skipper a mega-yacht wouldn't have seemed absurd. With a few more sea-miles and grey hairs you appreciate perhaps that its not the 'learning', its the experience that counts (but then I would say that, and to a young zero-to-hero buck that no doubt sounds terribly old-farty).

At the end of the day, it's a function of supply and demand, innit? I mean, if there are so many owners of big yachts needing crew, then the demand that creates is obviously going to put a drain on existing crew availability and create demand for courses like these? After all, the ads for the UKSA boast some pretty impressive employment stats for newly qualified students...

 

[Peppermint]

Re: Yes they\'re excellent

provided the trainee is up to the job.

Any fool can learn enough to physically run a yacht in a few months of intensive training. Running a crew is slightly more demanding but, if the trainee has some aptitude that too is no problem.

So long as candidates remember that YM qualifications are not the be all and end all, understand that learning is ongoing, and don't get all master under god, they'll be fine.

Look around when your next sailing. There are just as many experience nitwits out there as tyro's.

 

[jonjo]

Re: Zero to Hero - Yes

The courses raise the level of competence in then general yachting population without placing extra demands on government expenditure. Young Britons then venture out into the world and earn a living.

What are all these daft old codgers whinging about?

 

[Salty]

Re: Zero to Hero - Yes

ah, but they pay tax overseas, so no net benefit to the UK economy either /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif But fair point, actually.

 

[StellaGirl]

Re: Zero to Hero - Yes

Well I debated doing my YM last year but have put it off as I thnk you can never have enough experience. I thought about doing a 17wk course once but didnt and in hindsight I have learnt more doing it my way than I would have done Zero to Hero....
I can skipper a boat, have been out in all sorts of weather and have learnt alot on the maintenance side too...think I will do my YM some time this year but not in any rush.

 

[Haddock]

Re: Zero to Hero - Yes

[ QUOTE ]
The courses raise the level of competence in then general yachting population without placing extra demands on government expenditure. Young Britons then venture out into the world and earn a living.


[/ QUOTE ]



I think you will find that your statement is not disputed and neither are the courses, when taught at reputable schools. There is nothing wrong with doing the course either (as previously said).

As most people realise, experience, in addition to qualifications, applies to most industries and skills. I have employed keen and well meaning new graduates of YM courses (young and old) who are still very 'green' - and most of them know that, and go on, after gaining a fair bit of experience to be excellent seafarers. But it doesn't happen overnight!

A wise graduate of these courses will realise this. The ones that don't are seen through quite easily.

 

[AlexL]

I think theres many more relevant factors, than which course you went on, such as what experience you gain afterwards, or before, or during, what type of personality you have etc, etc. Was your car designed by an old salt or a new gradute , could you tell the difference? no. Who is flying the next airliner you get on? a 22 year old fresh out of a 1year full time zero to hero course? or a 40 year old ex military type, or a guy who financed his own training and worked as a flight instructor in a club? could you tell the difference? no.
It happens in every arena, it suits some and not others. Its also easy for people to forget that they too, once had zero knowlege and experience and had to start somewhere.

 

[jamesjermain]

The question of experience and the Yachtmaster exam seems to be misunderstood by some. Clearly the more experience you have, the better a skipper/yachtsman you will be, but with regard to the YM exam, there is no practical difference between a slow track or a fast track candidate.

Point (1): The YM exam is unusual in that you are expected to go out and do what you are trying to get qualified for before taking the exam. In every other field you get qualified first then put in the time to gain experience before moving up the promotion ladder. I suppose the PPL is similar, but you are not allowed to fly without an instructor, unless solo, until you are qualified.

Point (2) Whether you fast track or slow track, the sea miles requirements are the same, so in theory, you can be just as experiences fast tracking or slow. Also, your fast track course will involve being a proper skipper at all times - ie dealing with a crew - whereas many family yacht YMs have probably spent most of their time effectively sailing singlehanded. Ironically, Direct Entry YM candidates often have thousands of miles of experience yet the failure rate among them is high because they often lack some of the basic skills and knowledge.

Point (3) Your YM instructor will, or at least should, be at pains to stress that gaining a YM is only the start of a long process of becoming a truly competent sailor. The RYA is the first to say that a YM is by no means a 'master' on qualification. Similarly, in the merchant navy, a chap gets his master's ticket, but he can't expect to command a ship until he has much more experience. So don't be fooled by a mere title,good though it is.

 

[RupertW]

I can see where JJ is coming from, but I think the qualifying experience part for RYA qualifications is a bit of a joke, because miles done as skipper doesn't remotely mean that on a course, and that's the key difference between fast tracks and doing courses in between real experience.

If you "skipper" with a Yachtmaster Instructor on board and a crew of trainees close to your own level then you're not remotely responsible for the boat in the same way you would be if you did your first channel crossing with a couple of people less experienced than you. You know that if you're heading into trouble and don't notice, you'll get a quiet voice saying - "How's it going? What are you plans for....?"

To be worth something, I'd suggest that, after Competent Crew, then skipper miles should mean just that, with the skipper sent off on the boat with other trainees but no instructor (or on their own boat if they have one). Now if they really had been trained to be a skipper then that would be fine - but somehow I suspect that sailing schools aren't that confident about what they've taught...

 

[ColinMorris]

A lot of the Fastrack courses do have a self skippered component without the instructor on board.

Colin

 

[graham]

I think that intensive courses are fine providing the candidates realise their limitations at the end of them.

Someone who had completed a zero to hero then had a couple of years experience as crew /watchleader would then have the knowledge AND the experience.

As for someone wingeing that the classic boat maintenance training involved maintaining a yacht what would he /she prefer,watch a video then do a multiple choice tick test?

 

[30boat]

We don't have this type of courses where I live(Portugal) so I can't have a definite opinion on this.But,I was pratically born into sailing 48 years ago.My parents sailed a Dragon then and always took me along.From then on I never stopped.I think this is the best way to do it though obviously not available to everybody.I've been taking a series of navigation courses for almost 20 years now and three years ago I did the last one in celestial navigation wich I found fascinating.
Experience has no substitute and when at sea things are second nature to me although I'm always learning and making my share of mistakes(like hitting a charted buoy smack in the nose).
I think that ,as was said before,if newcomers accept their limitations they can learn the ropes(pun intended) fairly quickly and become able sailors who will enjoy their sailing as much as those who've been around for longer.

 

[jamesjermain]

And I see where you are coming from.

The RYA has another dilemma. Make the qualifying milage too low and the ticket becomes devalued, put it too high and it will discourage the people for whom it is mainly intended.

Also, how happy would you be with a training scheme which says: 'right, off you go, take this boat and a crew for a two hundred mile cruise, including over-night passages..., Oh! and by the way crew, this guy isn't qualified and we have no idea whether he's up to it or not - probably not 'cos he's never done it before.'

I only ask.

 

[Woodentop]

Spot on.

Good arguement. Totally agree.
Said better than I did.

 

[srm]

We had two such courses in our marina last summer. I was a bit concerned that they were half way around Britain but one crew spent a day doing basic exercises including throwing a heaving line! According to some of the the publicity they should have been well beyond Day Skipper level by then.

The courses are a good idea provided the limitations are taken into account - limited experience of working with one crew and one boat and no experience of being skipper (as others have discussed).

Personally, I feel that the RYA YM mileage / sea time requirements are abysmally low, but that is compared with MN & fishing deck officer requirements which are measured in months (usually 18 or more between tickets) actual working time.

One idea would be for all YM candidates to complete a single handed passage, say minimum of 60 miles anchorage to anchorage so it can realistically be completed in 24 hours without risk of fatigue. No different to the trainee pilot going solo.

As to me - YM Ocean (direct entry) + 15 years YM Instructor, now lapsed. Currently training MN and Fishing deck officers and sailing for my own relaxation.

 

[dedwards]

Changing the meaning of the initial title slightly:
are they any good - at getting you a decent job?
i'm a young whipper snapper who is just the sort of person that these things are aimed at and I was/am tempted but for the moment have chosen to maintain my IT career while learning to sail in my hols. I have always been dubious about employability claims as any muppet can get a job - the question is whether the industry takes these courses seriously enough to offer good jobs. So, has anyone got any idea of what sort of jobs an intensive graduate can reasonably expect?

 

[tcm]

i agree with all this - esp the reference to a Yachtmaster qual " good though it is" - and that's the thing: the YM qual is much in demand in part because it has such a great name. But at the same time, there's no pre-qualification needed whatsoever. That being the case, i can see no real argument against crash courses - provided of course that YM's do NOT see themselves as masters of all yachts on which they might step aboard.