"You are on my boat at your own risk and peril..."

[Rohorn]

\"You are on my boat at your own risk and peril...\"

Hi...,
Like other owner/skippers, I have those little stickers which discourage high heeled shoes or cigarettes, clearly visible where visitors come on board.
After a thought provoking incident last season, and mindful of today's litigating (litigious?) climate, as a private owner who enjoys having friends aboard to share the pleasures of boating, I am minded to display such a warning.
Friends I know tend to bring friends or relatives I don't know. I try to be as careful and responsible and as well equipped as possible, and with an excellent insurance, but now one feels more vulnerable.
Does such a warning carry any legal weight?
Comments appreciated.
Cheers....R

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[Rowana]

Re: \"You are on my boat at your own risk and peril...\"

Big discussion on Scuttlebut this week on that very subject.

Look Here -
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=ym&Number=484683&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&part=>http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=ym&Number=484683&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&part=</A>


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[AndrewB]

No chance!

Disclaimers have little or no weight. A number of US compensation cases in recent years have hinged on the level of precautions and safety information provided by the skipper, and crucially on the presumed ability of the victim to understand the risks involved - so that an experienced crewman will not have a claim when a novice might. My guess is much the same would now apply in the UK.

Personally I will no longer take out children under 18, and am becoming wary with beginners - which begs the question of how they are supposed to get experience!



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[Rohorn]

Re: No chance!

Hi....
Thats an interesting point. Can an individual judge the risks without significant experience? Clearly children cannot.
Suppose I asked guests to actually sign a form accepting my disclaimer conditions, would that stick? Including children to be signed for by a parent or guardian? My guests often include young families, typically for swimming picnics.
One might be able to compose a non-offensive, non frightening, but still clearly stated list of conditions. Doesn't anyone do this?
Cheers....R





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[Ric]

Re: No chance!

I too am always concerned about my liabilities if I have guest's children on board. Is it possible to designate the parent of the children as "captain" while the children are on board?

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[ubuysa]

Re: No chance!

AFAIK you cannot sign away your legal rights. So, no, getting your guests to sign a disclaimer carries no legal weight (I'm not a lawyer though).

I sailed with a skipper who, in his safety brief, told us that if he ever asked us to do anything which we didn't feel completely competent to do, or which we didn't want to do, we should say so at the time. If we carried out the skipper's instructions we remained responsible for our own safety at all times.

Whilst not legally binding it did have the effect of emphasising that we were still responsible for ourselves, and coming in the safety brief it didn't sound threatening.

Tony C.

<hr width=100% size=1>There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.

 

[AndrewB]

Re: No chance!

Someone else can certainly be designated as skipper for a particular trip, and he/she will take on all the attendant responsibilities. But compensation claims often pursue the owner as well as the skipper where these are different people, for example if the claim arises from the way the yacht is equipped.

 

[Rohorn]

Re: No chance!

Hi ...Thanks for your comments. I'm will try not to let my current paranoia wreck the enjoyment of the next season. This after one incident in 40 years of trouble-free nautical activity!.
Cheers....R



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[bedouin]

Re: \"You are on my boat at your own risk and peril...\"

The real answer to this one is to make sure that you have adequate 3rd party insurance. That way should there be an genuine injury the injured party stands a chance of getting compensation without having to sue you personally.

I wouldn't dream of owning a boat without that basic protection of others against my incompetence, and with that in place I don't need to worry too much about liability since in the unlikely case it does become an issue then the insurance company will take care of it.

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[maxi]

Re: \"Yes it does\"

Yes, it does have some legal weight, provided that you can "prove" that it has been read and understood. That probably means obtaining a signed and dated statement to the effect, ideally witnessed. In reality the 'no chance' answer is the more likely to be right.

What a country we live in. At least the Yanks are reducing their litigation culture - how long will it take us to follow suite?



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[roger]

Skippers responsibility

I'm not sure any bit of paper can relieve the skipper of responsibility. If, for example, the skipper knowingly takes the boat out into forecast severe weather with inadeqate boat or crew then the responsibility for any consequent disaster must be his (hers).
I'm not sure though what happens if a crew member refuses to wear a harness and then falls overboard in mid channel. I suppose we should try to establish that habit before leaving harbour. We can hardly knock the crew member on the head for his own safety and confine him below decks.

<hr width=100% size=1>Roger

 

[Rohorn]

Re: "Yes it does"

Hi...are they really reducing their litigation culture? I had an American woman on board last summer...invited by an invited guest...who'se attitude literally craved for something to go wrong. Nothing did, except that, with bare feet, she slipped on the wet deck after I'd advised her, along with everyone else, to wear a pair of deck shoes out of the grotty sackful I've got on board... One pissed off lady, desperate to make something of it, but unable to see how.
Incidents like that are rare and only momentarily irritating. As Bedouin says, I do have a big third-party coverage as part of my excellent insurance..
I feel that, generally, good insurance cover comes at a substantial cost, which will only increase for all of us if subjected to either frivolous or predatory or repetetive claims. One fumes at letters to the yachting press extolling the virtue of one insurance company or another which, in one instance, paid out for the loss of someone's last three dinghies.
My feeling is that insurance should be kept in reserve for the real emergencies.
Cheers ....R



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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Re: "Yes it does"

If someone invited on board my vessel gave indications of compo type claims if they were injured, as you say she made it clear to you she would have no hesitation. I would either sail back to port, or to the nearest port and respond with....

GET THE HELL OFF MY BOAT !

friend? or friend of friend whichever, I would have no hesitation regardless of time or location. I do not socialise with people like this and I will not under any circumstances have them in my house or on my boat, car land etc etc.

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>Top Cat Homepage</A>

 

[MainlySteam]

Re: \"Yes it does\"

Same here too, Julian. If anyone got up tight about such a thing on my boat they would be delivered straight to the nearest land and dispatched - friend, customer, customer's wife or whatever, I would not care.

John

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[ponapay]

My understanding of

the law is that no skipper can remove his/her responsibility for his/her negligence and that any paper signed purporting to do that would not stand up.

I presume that one of the reasons for the gross increase in insurance fees recently is because of the new litigious nature of our society.

On my boat everyone is briefed and must agree that they will tell the skipper if they either do not feel comfortable carrying out and order or do not understand it. They are also told that sailing can be dangerous and that they are responsible for their own safety, but in the event of my negligence they are covered.


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[Rohorn]

Re: My understanding of

Hi....Thanks to everyone for their comments. This has obviously been worried over by many folk, so one doesn't feel quite so isolated. In Greece where I sail, I already have to be a bit careful when taking friends out, in case I am accused of illegally chartering, or tax evasion or somesuch, by local "professionals" or even local fishermen. I don't want to add crew members to the list of potential threats.
We're in it for everybody's pleasure, aren't we?
Cheers....R

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[Birdseye]

Re: "Yes it does"

You're being unrealistic Jools. You undoubtedly do sail with people who will make a claim, if only because in the event of a passenger making a claim on their own insurance, the insurance company can make a claim on you whether your passenger wanted to or not. We had exactly that happen at our club.

The only answer is insurance. Disclaimers have limited effectiveness, particularly with minors, and since few of us can even afford to get into the foothills of the legal process to test out the validity of a disclaimer, we need to have someone else to pay for it.

There is less risk on a boat than in a car - and we wouldnt dream of asking for a disclaimer in the car. So lets not get the risk out of proportion.

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