Yet another VAT question, sorry

[Channel Ribs]

A few years ago I sold a very nice Sea Ray to a local chap who is now selling it on, the latest buyer wants a VAT receiept for the boat to complete the paperowrk but there was not one with the boat. Having now had several owners, the chance of finding the original seems unlikely.

What can he give his buyer, that will satisfy the VAT need on boats?

 

[Talbot]

[ QUOTE ]
What can he give his buyer, that will satisfy the VAT need on boats?

[/ QUOTE ]
a 17.5% reduction.

 

[Channel Ribs]

I think he is after a vat paid invoice from when the boat was new, but thanks.

Is it fair to demand VAT paperwork on a 1989 boat, or is it just a nice thing that ads value to the overall sale?

 

[gjgm]

I think this gets a bit overplayed. If a boat cruises in and out of Eu waters, or even UK waters, I suppose there is a small chance that customs might want to have a look. And some report that France can be a bit tricky over documentation. But for a used boat thats going to be used in the UK, I cannot believe any official is the least bit interested. There s a thread on PBO last week on this. Do we all ask for a VAT receipt on a car?

 

[Talbot]

You have missed the point. If there is no VAT certificate, and you need one, then pay the VAT again from the 17.5% reduced price.

 

[Channel Ribs]

But surely either the buyer will end up paying 17.5% extra or the seller getting 17.5% less. I doubt either has the leeway.

 

[gjgm]

quite why does he "need" a VAT receipt? Is anyone a member of RYA.. there was something a while back that they were going to consult IR on the fact that many boats cant "prove" their VAT status, on their web pag.
If a company imports a boat paying it when it is then sold on ...that VAT will just be an accounting entry wont it.. IR isnt going to send them a certificate for the boat, are they?

 

[duncan]

you either had one and didn't pass it on - unlikely I suspect - or didn't have one yorself in which case the best you can do is point them in the direction of wherever you bought it and hope they can progress from there.

personaly I would look at the hull number or build number and contract Searay CS in the states to see if they can advice whoimported it if that was done from new and go from there.

there is another alternative that has been discussed on here of course...............

 

[Channel Ribs]

Another twist in the tale, which my esteemed colleague just reminded me of... The sale was handled by a broker (third party). Does that make it their job?

 

[jhr]

Might also be worth contacting Marina Marbella to see if they have the original sale transaction on their records. They won't issue a new invoice but will, at least, be able to confirm that VAT was paid when she was first sold.

Could have been reclaimed later, of course, which is why no-one's too keen on "re-creating" VAT documentation retrospectively.

I think all of this insistence on VAT invoices is a bit OTT as well, but we're stuck with it now, for good or ill.

 

[ari]

[ QUOTE ]
Might also be worth contacting Marina Marbella to see if they have the original sale transaction on their records.

[/ QUOTE ]

They weren't the dealer in 1989, I believe David Lewis Searay and Penton Hook Boat Sales were back then.

Neither of which are still trading I don't think.

The whole boat VAT situation is a total farce in this country. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[duncan]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe David Lewis Searay and Penton Hook Boat Sales were back then.

Neither of which are still trading I don't think.



[/ QUOTE ]

hmmmm............now who's got a .......................?

 

[rogerthebodger]

If the boat was imported correctly there will be customs documentation on which VAT and duty was paid. Most HMCE only require compaines to keep doucmentation for a certain period. In South Africa it is only 5 years and thus can only go back 5 years. I don't know what the requirement for the retension of general tax docs are in the UK but that should be the limit.

VAT can only be reclaimed by a VAT registered company who is in the busness and uses the boat in his busness and if he sells it on must charge VAT and pay it over to HMCE. It is not up to the indevedul to prove he paid VAT it is up to the seller if a registered as a VAT vender to prove he charged VAT.

The problem is the the VAT man does not do there checks and if the vender has gone out of busness the VAT man tries to con the purchaser to pay again.

I would and HAVE dole the VAT to bogg off nicely qouting the rules and regs and usualy he will go away and try to con some one else.

 

[gjgm]

are you saying that HMCE are incorrect to chase the (current)owner for proof of VAT, and that they should chase the (original)seller who sold the boat in the course of his business and was thus legally liable to pay the VAT?

 

[rogerthebodger]

Yes

Any Person, Company or private person who imports any item permainatly must pay duty / VAT on import.

If he is VAT registered he may claim VAT back but if he sells on must charge VAT on selling price and pay to HMCE
So the VAT registered seller is responsible to HMCE for the VAT

A private person cannot claim the VAT back as he is not VAT registered and if he sells on does not have to charge VAT.

If an Agent is involved in the sale as an agent VAT will be paid by the seller to the agent on the agents fee only which must be paid to HMCE by the agent.

If any item is sold outside the country ie Exported VAT and duty if applicable is paid on import to the tax man of the country that the goods enter. No Tax is paid in the exporting country

Any item can be temperary imported without paying duty / VAT for a period of between 6 to 12 months. After that VAT and Duty must be paid.

I run a company who supplies customs clearing software to customs clearing agents in South Africa and several other African countries and thus have to know the regs. I may not know all details of UK tax regs. VAT and duty tend to be very simular in countries using VAT and all tend to be controlled by international agreements and the World Customs Orginsation.

 

[ari]

[ QUOTE ]
If the boat was imported correctly there will be customs documentation on which VAT and duty was paid. Most HMCE only require compaines to keep doucmentation for a certain period. In South Africa it is only 5 years and thus can only go back 5 years. I don't know what the requirement for the retension of general tax docs are in the UK but that should be the limit.


[/ QUOTE ]

There is no time limit in the UK for requirement of proof of VAT payment on a boat, however HM CVustoms can cheerfully bin their records after a certain amount of years, and indeed even if they haven't, chances of getting anything out of them are pretty much zero.

It is a genuinely farcical situation. Imagine you buy a boat for £1,000,000 +VAT and then the dealer ceases trading for whatever reason. Then you have a small fire at home or a flood maybe, and the VAT invoice is destroyed. You're now officially £175,000 out of pocket cos you can no longer prove the VAT paid status of your boat! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Try claiming that on your household insurance... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[rogerthebodger]

For how long does busness in the UK have for keep it's account records as a legal requirement. In South Africa it is 5 years. If there is no limit in the UK do you have to keep it for ever. If a company goes bust then what. If it is the case why only boats why not cars. electronics, trucks etc.

If the Taxman can demand you prove tax has been paid and there is not time limit the Taxman can come and demand you pay tax again on a secont hand car you purchased 20 years ago or can demand tax be paid by both salles and purchaser if no documentation. And why can france tax man demand tax on a boat only in france for a short time.

We have had tax demands from zimbabwe if a car entered and the crashed and scraped unless the scraped car was removed.

Having been involved duty and VAT regs for over 15 years in SA and I have seen all con's from both taxman and importers and the gross missinterperation of the tax laws by the taxman in an attempt to increase it revenue.

My tip is the get a copy for the relevent regulations and if confrunted get the taxman to show you the relevant details and read then very carefully and discuss the interperation and get any interperation in writing.

 

[ari]

A boat is not a business. And therefore if you need to prove that your boat is VAT paid you need the original VAT invoice.

And there is no time limit on that.

Utterly mad state of afairs. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[rogerthebodger]

Is there any time limit on keeping records for your own personal tax info.

I say again the seller is responsible not the purchaser.

We have a web site where most of the laws can be seen http://www.acts.co.za, is there a site like this for the UK acts so that people can find what the rules really are and not just take what the authorities say.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Is there any time limit on keeping records for your own personal tax info.

I say again the seller is responsible not the purchaser.

Last time I looked the law was that the authorities have to prove you are gilty and contrevined any laws not you have tp prove you havent (only in france you are gilty until proven innocent)

We have a web site where most of the laws can be seen http://www.acts.co.za, is there a site like this for the UK acts so that people can find what the rules really are and not just take what the authorities say.