garvellachs
Well-Known Member
All good advice, esp about chartering. A flotilla somewhere in the sun is a great way to enthuse the family and get simple experience quickly - Greek Islands or Croatia, not in high season if possible.
Yachting advice for a newbie
- Thread starter Surfwizard
- Start date
Abaker
Well-Known Member
Re: Yachting advice for a newbie [Re sailing dinghy]
A generation ago many newbies began with a sailing dinghy. A good dinghy's quick response teaches you the basics of sailing that you need to know in order to enjoy the sport. Ours was a Wayfarer, still a good choice judging by the much improved version I saw at the London Boat Show a couple of years ago. We used it for daysailing, racing, and camping, and fondly remember the fun we had in it with our young son. In due course we moved on to larger boats for coastal cruising, then to one with offshore capabilities.
A generation ago many newbies began with a sailing dinghy. A good dinghy's quick response teaches you the basics of sailing that you need to know in order to enjoy the sport. Ours was a Wayfarer, still a good choice judging by the much improved version I saw at the London Boat Show a couple of years ago. We used it for daysailing, racing, and camping, and fondly remember the fun we had in it with our young son. In due course we moved on to larger boats for coastal cruising, then to one with offshore capabilities.
ShipsWoofy
Well-Known Member
I am not disagreeing with what you are saying but owning a boat is special, more special than chartering. She is not just a boat, but also a getaway, even when the weather is bowing a gale.
We have hardly used the boat this year for a number of reasons but I would not like to have been without her. We have been down most weekends, but hardly sailed.
Just being on board, even if only for a night and a day is relaxing. It is also a time a family can spend together, though maybe not too great for a teenage child.
I think you can analyse the whole thing too much, the moment you start examining the cost-benefit you should choose a different hobby. You can't quantify the joy of saying 'my boat', or just having the boat to escape to. Also, as this is PBO, the joy of doing some work and making her better, this is not like tiling the bathroom, it is fun work.
Then there is the fun of meeting the other mooring holders who probably wont take the time to invest in the crew of a charter boat, but soon you are on board each others boats for drinks, helping out with each others maintenance, swapping skills etc.
I would hate not to have a boat, any boat. She is just there and no spreadsheet can ever tell me if it is worth it or not.
Sorry for the romantic drivel.
We have hardly used the boat this year for a number of reasons but I would not like to have been without her. We have been down most weekends, but hardly sailed.
Just being on board, even if only for a night and a day is relaxing. It is also a time a family can spend together, though maybe not too great for a teenage child.
I think you can analyse the whole thing too much, the moment you start examining the cost-benefit you should choose a different hobby. You can't quantify the joy of saying 'my boat', or just having the boat to escape to. Also, as this is PBO, the joy of doing some work and making her better, this is not like tiling the bathroom, it is fun work.
Then there is the fun of meeting the other mooring holders who probably wont take the time to invest in the crew of a charter boat, but soon you are on board each others boats for drinks, helping out with each others maintenance, swapping skills etc.
I would hate not to have a boat, any boat. She is just there and no spreadsheet can ever tell me if it is worth it or not.
Sorry for the romantic drivel.
FullCircle
Well-Known Member
Just to return for a moment.
I disagree with the Chartist movement. I have never chartered a boat, and nor would I. Its not yours, and there is no personal involvement. You cannot personalise the living space, and you cant leave your favourite CDs on the boat. You will not learn ownership or maintainance, and its a soulless non family experience. Nice to be on a big new shiny boat, but thats about it.
Buy a smaller boat, learn the pride of ownership, get the family involved, swap up when it feels right.
Warning: You appear to have a decent budget, so buy a boat with headroom, toilet/shower and a galley recognisable as a galley. If it looks homely, its a real bonus, with real sustainable budget benefits.
The biggest loss of boaters is those whose families will not join you on the stinky, leaking thing that they bang their heads on. The budget allowed from the family coffers will then shrink alarmingly if they are not actively engaged.
Your next post should be asking what AWB you should buy for around 25-30k.
I disagree with the Chartist movement. I have never chartered a boat, and nor would I. Its not yours, and there is no personal involvement. You cannot personalise the living space, and you cant leave your favourite CDs on the boat. You will not learn ownership or maintainance, and its a soulless non family experience. Nice to be on a big new shiny boat, but thats about it.
Buy a smaller boat, learn the pride of ownership, get the family involved, swap up when it feels right.
Warning: You appear to have a decent budget, so buy a boat with headroom, toilet/shower and a galley recognisable as a galley. If it looks homely, its a real bonus, with real sustainable budget benefits.
The biggest loss of boaters is those whose families will not join you on the stinky, leaking thing that they bang their heads on. The budget allowed from the family coffers will then shrink alarmingly if they are not actively engaged.
Your next post should be asking what AWB you should buy for around 25-30k.
TiggerToo
Well-Known Member
Hi and welcome,
my advice would be charter to start with aim at as varied an experience as possible. Maybe for one or two seasons. Then take the plunge if you and your partner FEEL it is the right thing. I say "feel" because DogWatch and others below are right, boat ownership is something you do with your heart as well as your brain. Like many things in life you'll have to walk a tight-rope and compromise. If it goes well, it is a hugely rewarding experience. In my experience sailing is not just about getting from A to B (it is a very inefficient way of doing so, and most of us actually get from A to A!!!!). So I fully agree with D-W in as much as ownership gives you a lot more than just sailing. The boat will be a refuge, a place to excape to, to forget temporarily about other things in life ashore. That is also why accommodation is important if you are hoping to do this with your family.
For what its worth, we have decided to base our pride and joy down in the SW, lots more miles away that the nearer Solent. Because it is cheaper, because we like the sailing area more, and other reasons I will not go into here.
So, in summary: charter to start off with, and then think about what you will like to own, and where.
Budget: give yourself ALWAYS a good margin of safety for things that might go wrong or things you might like to treat yourself to later on (from gadgets to major bits of kit). I'd reckon 15-20% of the overall cost would be a safe bet. From what I have seen you could probably start with a minimum of 10K with sky as the limit
I must declare an interest here: our boat is for charter - and we started just like you. PM me if you want details of what we did.
my advice would be charter to start with aim at as varied an experience as possible. Maybe for one or two seasons. Then take the plunge if you and your partner FEEL it is the right thing. I say "feel" because DogWatch and others below are right, boat ownership is something you do with your heart as well as your brain. Like many things in life you'll have to walk a tight-rope and compromise. If it goes well, it is a hugely rewarding experience. In my experience sailing is not just about getting from A to B (it is a very inefficient way of doing so, and most of us actually get from A to A!!!!). So I fully agree with D-W in as much as ownership gives you a lot more than just sailing. The boat will be a refuge, a place to excape to, to forget temporarily about other things in life ashore. That is also why accommodation is important if you are hoping to do this with your family.
For what its worth, we have decided to base our pride and joy down in the SW, lots more miles away that the nearer Solent. Because it is cheaper, because we like the sailing area more, and other reasons I will not go into here.
So, in summary: charter to start off with, and then think about what you will like to own, and where.
Budget: give yourself ALWAYS a good margin of safety for things that might go wrong or things you might like to treat yourself to later on (from gadgets to major bits of kit). I'd reckon 15-20% of the overall cost would be a safe bet. From what I have seen you could probably start with a minimum of 10K with sky as the limit
I must declare an interest here: our boat is for charter - and we started just like you. PM me if you want details of what we did.
chinita
Well-Known Member
Some excellent advice given so far.
I spent years crewing and thoroughly enjoyed it. However, nothing prepared me for the abject terror of that first day of responsibility as I took my 'crew' from Whitby to Hartlepool on my first boat - an Albin Vega. Do not underestimate the huge difference between crewing and skippering.
I have never bought new and I have loved each and every one of my boats. Very quickly you will make your mark on them and they will become one of the family. The majority of the yachting fraternity does not support keeping up with the Jones' and you will find yourself welcomed whatever the cost/value of your yacht.
There are lots of lovely boats around for 12-15k and you should save the rest of the money. By all means, change after 18 months or so but use that time to explore what you really need in the long term. With an older, cheaper boat depreciation is negligible, if at all. In fact, I have always managed to turn at least a 20% profit on my boats after a little tlc and basic mainenance.
I have gone full circle. My list runs; Albin Vega, Westerly Konsort, Vertue II, Hallberg Rassy 36, 14m Steel Ketch, Cheoy Lee Vertue. And yes, I have the best boat now!
Good luck.
I spent years crewing and thoroughly enjoyed it. However, nothing prepared me for the abject terror of that first day of responsibility as I took my 'crew' from Whitby to Hartlepool on my first boat - an Albin Vega. Do not underestimate the huge difference between crewing and skippering.
I have never bought new and I have loved each and every one of my boats. Very quickly you will make your mark on them and they will become one of the family. The majority of the yachting fraternity does not support keeping up with the Jones' and you will find yourself welcomed whatever the cost/value of your yacht.
There are lots of lovely boats around for 12-15k and you should save the rest of the money. By all means, change after 18 months or so but use that time to explore what you really need in the long term. With an older, cheaper boat depreciation is negligible, if at all. In fact, I have always managed to turn at least a 20% profit on my boats after a little tlc and basic mainenance.
I have gone full circle. My list runs; Albin Vega, Westerly Konsort, Vertue II, Hallberg Rassy 36, 14m Steel Ketch, Cheoy Lee Vertue. And yes, I have the best boat now!
Good luck.
RupertW
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I have never chartered a boat, and nor would I. Its not yours, and there is no personal involvement... its a soulless non family experience. Nice to be on a big new shiny boat, but thats about it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm...let's try that the other way round, "I've never owned a boat and nor would I. It's old and you never actually get sailing, just maintaining a leaky caravan..."
If you had actually tried chartering (as well) you might find your opinions changing. It's still real sailing but perhaps in places you might dream about going in your own boat when you get a year off. A chance for new skills like stern-to mooring, or sailing a catamaran, or really learning how an anchor sets by diving in once the engine's off. A chance to see all sorts of different ways of laying out a cabin, reefing sails, towing dinghys, and perhaps handling boats much bigger than your own.
All chances to enrich your sailing back home, and give you a much more informed idea about what you'd like to do next with your current boat or your next one.
Of course you can just motor between islands drinking beers instead.
I have never chartered a boat, and nor would I. Its not yours, and there is no personal involvement... its a soulless non family experience. Nice to be on a big new shiny boat, but thats about it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm...let's try that the other way round, "I've never owned a boat and nor would I. It's old and you never actually get sailing, just maintaining a leaky caravan..."
If you had actually tried chartering (as well) you might find your opinions changing. It's still real sailing but perhaps in places you might dream about going in your own boat when you get a year off. A chance for new skills like stern-to mooring, or sailing a catamaran, or really learning how an anchor sets by diving in once the engine's off. A chance to see all sorts of different ways of laying out a cabin, reefing sails, towing dinghys, and perhaps handling boats much bigger than your own.
All chances to enrich your sailing back home, and give you a much more informed idea about what you'd like to do next with your current boat or your next one.
Of course you can just motor between islands drinking beers instead.
knewboater
Well-Known Member
I`m no expert but was new to yachting 8 years ago( altho. not to sailing)when we bought our first boat, to gain knowledge I took the day skipper theory course which gives you most of what you want to know about sailing and the yacht, unless you want to go ocean sailing. In so far as running cost is concerned on a second hand boat(mine was £32k) it probably averages about £500-£1,000 ayear this includes the odd spray hood/dodger replacement etc. Mooring fees are on top costs according to where you keep it.For some of us using the boat to stay on instead of going out is half the pleasure of ownership, so somewhere nice is a bonus. Which boat well what do you want? The purists will talk about long keels/seakeeping abilities/etc but in my 35 years of all sorts of sailing,almost any decent make of yacht will take you around the coast and accross the channel to France. Second hand usually gives more equipment in the price. Just a view but it may help.
Evadne
Well-Known Member
Hi,
Its been a while since I first became a boat owner but when you look at the advice you'll see that there are as many opinions as boat owners. If you and your family have never sailed before, there's a lot to be said for getting a dinghy to actually learn to sail for a season, or two.
I'd go the old/cheap route: I did and got lucky, I'm still on my first boat after 21 years. Also, don't spend more capital than you have to and never underestimate how much it costs to keep a boat. Don't get me wrong, it is all money well spent, it's just that sometimes it seems to be rather a lot, so buying a £20k boat and keeping a £20k boat fund is a good idea. I must try it sometime. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif New sails or engine repairs are some of the biggest cash eaters. And don't forget that the running cost:length ratio is exponential, so a 26-footer will cost half the upkeep of a 36-footer. (ish).
Its been a while since I first became a boat owner but when you look at the advice you'll see that there are as many opinions as boat owners. If you and your family have never sailed before, there's a lot to be said for getting a dinghy to actually learn to sail for a season, or two.
I'd go the old/cheap route: I did and got lucky, I'm still on my first boat after 21 years. Also, don't spend more capital than you have to and never underestimate how much it costs to keep a boat. Don't get me wrong, it is all money well spent, it's just that sometimes it seems to be rather a lot, so buying a £20k boat and keeping a £20k boat fund is a good idea. I must try it sometime. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif New sails or engine repairs are some of the biggest cash eaters. And don't forget that the running cost:length ratio is exponential, so a 26-footer will cost half the upkeep of a 36-footer. (ish).
Mirelle
N/A
The best Yachting advice for a newbie
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Aeolus_IV
Well-Known Member
Lots of good advice in here .. everyone started with their first boat at some point. I would second (third?) the comments about not buying a new boat. To use an analogy, if you were starying to learn to drive would you buy a new car for your first vehicle? Then there is the depreciation if it is not the right boat or worse, sailing doesn't agree with the family.
Second hand though covers an enormous range of boats anything from just a couple of years old to, well, ancient. As a general rule you can get more boat for your pound as the boats get older. However, on the flip side you are more likely to find that an older boat needs more significant maintenance too, quite often just "one off" activities, but they need to be recognised and included in the budget (it terms of both costs and personal time and effort).
From my own experience buying an older boat can be very rewarding, but they are not always as cheap as they would appear. Aeolus has taken 5 years to get to her current position, and there are still some serious tasks ahead. In terms of cost, expenditure has exceeded initial purchase by a factor of two.
My advice: Look at your budget, then half it. Then, with the other half you can make it the boat you envisaged when you were looking at buying it.
The list of possible expenses are enormous. It can be just a new suit of sails if you pick up a good tidy boat with a full set of working toys on board. At the other end of the scale there are potential bank breaking activities like new engines, osmosis (I don't want to start a discussion about "do you" or "do you not" treat it), spars and rigging, replacing old electronics etc etc.
One comment which seems to have been hinted at, if not stated explicity is that the cost rises with boat size. Sounds obvious, but some items simply go up with the length of the boat, others at a greater rate (sails for instance). So another point to bear in mind is that it is possible to buy a boat which is too expensive to maintain!
Having said all that, don't be put off, owning and sailing Aeolus is one of the most satisfying things I have ever done.
Just my two penny worth.
Jeff.
Second hand though covers an enormous range of boats anything from just a couple of years old to, well, ancient. As a general rule you can get more boat for your pound as the boats get older. However, on the flip side you are more likely to find that an older boat needs more significant maintenance too, quite often just "one off" activities, but they need to be recognised and included in the budget (it terms of both costs and personal time and effort).
From my own experience buying an older boat can be very rewarding, but they are not always as cheap as they would appear. Aeolus has taken 5 years to get to her current position, and there are still some serious tasks ahead. In terms of cost, expenditure has exceeded initial purchase by a factor of two.
My advice: Look at your budget, then half it. Then, with the other half you can make it the boat you envisaged when you were looking at buying it.
The list of possible expenses are enormous. It can be just a new suit of sails if you pick up a good tidy boat with a full set of working toys on board. At the other end of the scale there are potential bank breaking activities like new engines, osmosis (I don't want to start a discussion about "do you" or "do you not" treat it), spars and rigging, replacing old electronics etc etc.
One comment which seems to have been hinted at, if not stated explicity is that the cost rises with boat size. Sounds obvious, but some items simply go up with the length of the boat, others at a greater rate (sails for instance). So another point to bear in mind is that it is possible to buy a boat which is too expensive to maintain!
Having said all that, don't be put off, owning and sailing Aeolus is one of the most satisfying things I have ever done.
Just my two penny worth.
Jeff.
Shearwater
Well-Known Member
Someone might have already said this BUT make sure you can get a mooring or berth where you want it before you commit to a certain length boat. You may be able to berth a 27 footer easier than a 30'+. Where I am in the Med there is nothing available, nada, for any boat over 27/8 feet; I'm OK with a 24 footer !!!
jackho
Well-Known Member
I am surprised at the number of contra indicators you have got and hope to offset with some support for your judgement and choice of boat.
I started boating with a then family of 3 by purchasing a brand new boat without ever having sailed. I sailed mostly on the river and was a fair weather sailor until I/We had the confidence to venture offshore. I should also add I joined a local yacht club so got plenty of support and guidance.
We had looked a many boats and the only boat my wife was happy with was the new boat with a bit of style and new equipment (especially) engine that could be more safely relied upon to ensure the safety of the family. We also enjoyed overnighting when not sailing and enjoy the comforts of the (new) boat.
my only problem was that I didn't buy a bigger boat for a growing family.
A benefit and cost saving you might avoid with the hassle and cost of changing boats.
The Bav 30 is an outstanding boat for the money and as you will already know comes with a higher spec. fridge,shore power,wind,speed,depth etc.
If you buy outside the UK you can get a very good discount and if purchasing in France avail of the French leasing system and equivalent interest free terms ie 10% vat. (Same aplies to other EC countries not UK). You should have plenty of change from your budget!! No doubt you wife will judge the interior finish.
If as you suggest you are completing a RYA course this winter and no doubt assess the London Boat Show offerings your instincts and judgement will surely prevail and good luck with whatever the outcome. Jacko
I started boating with a then family of 3 by purchasing a brand new boat without ever having sailed. I sailed mostly on the river and was a fair weather sailor until I/We had the confidence to venture offshore. I should also add I joined a local yacht club so got plenty of support and guidance.
We had looked a many boats and the only boat my wife was happy with was the new boat with a bit of style and new equipment (especially) engine that could be more safely relied upon to ensure the safety of the family. We also enjoyed overnighting when not sailing and enjoy the comforts of the (new) boat.
my only problem was that I didn't buy a bigger boat for a growing family.
A benefit and cost saving you might avoid with the hassle and cost of changing boats.
The Bav 30 is an outstanding boat for the money and as you will already know comes with a higher spec. fridge,shore power,wind,speed,depth etc.
If you buy outside the UK you can get a very good discount and if purchasing in France avail of the French leasing system and equivalent interest free terms ie 10% vat. (Same aplies to other EC countries not UK). You should have plenty of change from your budget!! No doubt you wife will judge the interior finish.
If as you suggest you are completing a RYA course this winter and no doubt assess the London Boat Show offerings your instincts and judgement will surely prevail and good luck with whatever the outcome. Jacko