G
Guest
Guest
Should Yachtmasters be made to retake their exams to keep the qualification current and if so what time period, say every 5 years?
Pete
Pete
sailbadthesinner
New member
My ideal would be to be offerd a free reassessment / freshner every five years, a sort of sea check for your skills, especially if you haven't been out in a while.
I'd sooner see retesting on cars first.
Beer! Now there's a temporary solution.
I'd sooner see retesting on cars first.
Beer! Now there's a temporary solution.
blackbird
New member
Free?
Someone will have to pay for it. I can't see the RNLI getting involved in this one.
I can't imagine why we would want to tie ourselves up in yet more red tape for, I suspect, little or no demonstrable "added value" except for the RYA and the sailing schools. Maybe commercial ship's officers have to update (?) and maybe commercial yachtmasters should as well, like instructors etc. But this is a voluntary scheme and we remain responsible for our own competence and decisions. The common law Duty of Care should suffice to cover any legal issues.
I would like to see sailing schools offering update sessions on bits of the syllabus that have changed, such as GPS navigation, but they must be voluntary. Most of us will teach ourselves, or each other, what we need to know as things change (most important things we learn, we teach ourselves, of course. Being taught is a very minor contribution to learning) However, self-teaching does cut us off from other peoples' expertise, experience and perspectives, so it's good to have some access to these from time to time.
But compulsory re-testing? No way!
Someone will have to pay for it. I can't see the RNLI getting involved in this one.
I can't imagine why we would want to tie ourselves up in yet more red tape for, I suspect, little or no demonstrable "added value" except for the RYA and the sailing schools. Maybe commercial ship's officers have to update (?) and maybe commercial yachtmasters should as well, like instructors etc. But this is a voluntary scheme and we remain responsible for our own competence and decisions. The common law Duty of Care should suffice to cover any legal issues.
I would like to see sailing schools offering update sessions on bits of the syllabus that have changed, such as GPS navigation, but they must be voluntary. Most of us will teach ourselves, or each other, what we need to know as things change (most important things we learn, we teach ourselves, of course. Being taught is a very minor contribution to learning) However, self-teaching does cut us off from other peoples' expertise, experience and perspectives, so it's good to have some access to these from time to time.
But compulsory re-testing? No way!
sailbadthesinner
New member
Re: Free?
I agree there should be no compulsory re testing
and i agree about offering updates
some people can teach themselves very well others find it better to be shown
I thought the RYA should offer a free refresher or update??? I understand this is as likely as pigs flying as demonstrating the value of prevention is always difficult.
i think the commercial boys are monitored but how much i donot know
my RYA membrship renewal form came through on monday i am considering whether it is worth continuing.
On the whole i am of the view that they lobby on our behalf, i have not the time or more importantly the expertise to do that. I have only been a member one year so have not got involved. I feel i should support them or i have no right to whinge about problems i encounter if there is a body that could help but i cannot be bothered to join. i wonder what other's views are
Beer! Now there's a temporary solution.
I agree there should be no compulsory re testing
and i agree about offering updates
some people can teach themselves very well others find it better to be shown
I thought the RYA should offer a free refresher or update??? I understand this is as likely as pigs flying as demonstrating the value of prevention is always difficult.
i think the commercial boys are monitored but how much i donot know
my RYA membrship renewal form came through on monday i am considering whether it is worth continuing.
On the whole i am of the view that they lobby on our behalf, i have not the time or more importantly the expertise to do that. I have only been a member one year so have not got involved. I feel i should support them or i have no right to whinge about problems i encounter if there is a body that could help but i cannot be bothered to join. i wonder what other's views are
Beer! Now there's a temporary solution.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Free?
In December of last year I wrote the following and my view has not changed. I was corrected by someone that the RYA does not style itself as the governing body but that's the way it came across to me.
start
I was a member of the RYA for many years but a couple of years ago reviewed my membership and decided enough was enough. The reasons
o All those years ago the RYA did represent to government and others the views and needs of the average cruising yachtman both power & sail.
o The current organisation styles itself as the governing body...
o The current organisation does not represent the views of the average cruising yachtsman to goverment but rather appears to represent the views of Government to us.
o The current organisation is more interested in the glamour of the racing side of the house.
o The current organisation has a committee structure that is unwieldy and is very hard to express a view to.
o Prior to canceling my subscription I did invite them to reawaken my interest and tell me why I should renew. The reply I got was along the lines that I would get my subscription back in discounts, it was my duty to as they were the people who were consulted on boating issues.
I cancelled....
Wandering around the boat show last year I talked to some people on the Cruising Association stand and joined. They are consulted and do input the views of the cruising yachtsman. They are a different organisation to the RYA and a lot more expensive but they do represent me better.
I do believe that unless the RYA embarks a massive structual change like the dinos we will wake up one morning and they will not be there which will be a loss to us all.
end
Pete
In December of last year I wrote the following and my view has not changed. I was corrected by someone that the RYA does not style itself as the governing body but that's the way it came across to me.
start
I was a member of the RYA for many years but a couple of years ago reviewed my membership and decided enough was enough. The reasons
o All those years ago the RYA did represent to government and others the views and needs of the average cruising yachtman both power & sail.
o The current organisation styles itself as the governing body...
o The current organisation does not represent the views of the average cruising yachtsman to goverment but rather appears to represent the views of Government to us.
o The current organisation is more interested in the glamour of the racing side of the house.
o The current organisation has a committee structure that is unwieldy and is very hard to express a view to.
o Prior to canceling my subscription I did invite them to reawaken my interest and tell me why I should renew. The reply I got was along the lines that I would get my subscription back in discounts, it was my duty to as they were the people who were consulted on boating issues.
I cancelled....
Wandering around the boat show last year I talked to some people on the Cruising Association stand and joined. They are consulted and do input the views of the cruising yachtsman. They are a different organisation to the RYA and a lot more expensive but they do represent me better.
I do believe that unless the RYA embarks a massive structual change like the dinos we will wake up one morning and they will not be there which will be a loss to us all.
end
Pete
G
Guest
Guest
As someone who holds both Yachtmaster Offhore with commercial endosement and a DTI Boatmasters Licence with C.O.P. I would have to say NO to your re-testing question.
The reasons I would give are that to hold on to these tickets I must do a minium of 2500 nm in a 5 year period. In doing this mileage I am of course exersizing most of my skills i.e boat handling, navigation, VHF protocols, day/night passages etc.
BTW I also have to have a medical to prove my fitness to hold the tickets, which I believe is not a requirement for a normal YM ticket.
At what point would you stop re-testing, if you do it for YM, what about Day skipper, Power boat 1-2 and VHF? As someone has already said all you would do is give the sailing schools an un-ending supply of money and probably blow the RYA out of the water with the extra paperwork!!!
The reasons I would give are that to hold on to these tickets I must do a minium of 2500 nm in a 5 year period. In doing this mileage I am of course exersizing most of my skills i.e boat handling, navigation, VHF protocols, day/night passages etc.
BTW I also have to have a medical to prove my fitness to hold the tickets, which I believe is not a requirement for a normal YM ticket.
At what point would you stop re-testing, if you do it for YM, what about Day skipper, Power boat 1-2 and VHF? As someone has already said all you would do is give the sailing schools an un-ending supply of money and probably blow the RYA out of the water with the extra paperwork!!!
G
Guest
Guest
Post deleted by danfoley
G
Guest
Guest
Brian, I raised the question because somebody raised it with me, the context was if at sometime in the future Brussels deemed that all boat users had to be licensed then surely those who obatined their certificates many years ago, myself included, would need retesting. I thus thought I would bounce it off this forum.
Pete
Pete
peterb
New member
I think the answer to any such suggestion from Brussels should be that if qualifications needed to be revalidated, then the first such requirement should be for revalidation of driving licences. We could back that up by comparing the casualty rates on land and at sea.
I suspect that the explosion acrosx Europe at the suggestion of revalidating driving licences would soon put paid to the idea!
As someone else has said, instructors already have to be revalidated (including a medical and eyesight check) every five years.
I suspect that the explosion acrosx Europe at the suggestion of revalidating driving licences would soon put paid to the idea!
As someone else has said, instructors already have to be revalidated (including a medical and eyesight check) every five years.
Cornishman
New member
Re: Getting Off Subject, but...
We are getting away from the original subject of Should Yachtmasters be Retested, aren't we?
But..to whom does the Cruising Association represent you? Do they run training schemes? I don't know, but would like to.
As a Yachtmaster Examiner I would be made for life if all the YM's had to be retested - as I am - once every 5 years. And before you ask, I have to pay for each retest which lasts 2 or 3 days so don't ask me to offer freebies, please.
We are getting away from the original subject of Should Yachtmasters be Retested, aren't we?
But..to whom does the Cruising Association represent you? Do they run training schemes? I don't know, but would like to.
As a Yachtmaster Examiner I would be made for life if all the YM's had to be retested - as I am - once every 5 years. And before you ask, I have to pay for each retest which lasts 2 or 3 days so don't ask me to offer freebies, please.
NigeCh
New member
??? ???
2,500 miles over 5 years is naff all. With respect 500 miles a year hardly tests any personal skills.
The RYA (Fill in whatever you want) is not a measure of ongoing competence. It is merely a measure of the ability to pass a theory exam plus a practical exam. How many people do you know with bits of paper saying that they have BSc's or MSc's or PhD's and you know them to be worthless farts?
How many people do you know that hold RYA Yachmasters certificates that you would not trust to do an overnight channel crossing with them on watch whilst you were below off watch??? --- That is, IMO, the minimum measure of assessment.
5 year re-tests would sort out quite a few, particularly stinkpotters and equally for fishing boats. I'm all for re-testing and boating licences too.
2,500 miles over 5 years is naff all. With respect 500 miles a year hardly tests any personal skills.
The RYA (Fill in whatever you want) is not a measure of ongoing competence. It is merely a measure of the ability to pass a theory exam plus a practical exam. How many people do you know with bits of paper saying that they have BSc's or MSc's or PhD's and you know them to be worthless farts?
How many people do you know that hold RYA Yachmasters certificates that you would not trust to do an overnight channel crossing with them on watch whilst you were below off watch??? --- That is, IMO, the minimum measure of assessment.
5 year re-tests would sort out quite a few, particularly stinkpotters and equally for fishing boats. I'm all for re-testing and boating licences too.
Gunfleet
New member
Re: ??? ???
This is an interesting post, Nigel. I've always thought that the most difficult bits of sailing were the bits where you might bump into something... approaching the coast. Does anyone know (of course you do, please don't give examples) more difficult stretches of water than the Thames Estuary or the Bristol Channel? But most of us (I'm one) navigate happily with a Day Skipper practical taken eons ago. I'll admit worse, I've made loads of crossings of the channel, cruised the English south coast, Holland, France all the way round to south Brittany. I have yet to cross Biscay or the Atlantic in my Yachtmaster virgin state, but I ask you... what the hell is there out there more dangerous than a force seven in the Estuary? Been there, done that with sand banks under the lee. But apparently I couldn't get a yachtmaster ticket without following the entire syllabus again at night school (24 weeks... I mean, don't these people have lives?) and completing heaven knows how many miles at night fifty miles from land. I sail alone across the Thames and the North Sea. I'm almost never 50 miles from land (Brighton to Cherbourg and Harwich to Ijmuiden are the nearest places where that's possible - been there, done both) ... but how bloody difficult can floating around the Western Approaches be?
Or is there something about RYA quals that I'm missing?
This is an interesting post, Nigel. I've always thought that the most difficult bits of sailing were the bits where you might bump into something... approaching the coast. Does anyone know (of course you do, please don't give examples) more difficult stretches of water than the Thames Estuary or the Bristol Channel? But most of us (I'm one) navigate happily with a Day Skipper practical taken eons ago. I'll admit worse, I've made loads of crossings of the channel, cruised the English south coast, Holland, France all the way round to south Brittany. I have yet to cross Biscay or the Atlantic in my Yachtmaster virgin state, but I ask you... what the hell is there out there more dangerous than a force seven in the Estuary? Been there, done that with sand banks under the lee. But apparently I couldn't get a yachtmaster ticket without following the entire syllabus again at night school (24 weeks... I mean, don't these people have lives?) and completing heaven knows how many miles at night fifty miles from land. I sail alone across the Thames and the North Sea. I'm almost never 50 miles from land (Brighton to Cherbourg and Harwich to Ijmuiden are the nearest places where that's possible - been there, done both) ... but how bloody difficult can floating around the Western Approaches be?
Or is there something about RYA quals that I'm missing?
G
Guest
Guest
Re: ??? ???
NigeCh, your probably right 2500 miles isn't that far, but I did say it was a minimum and if I don't get them in I will lose my tickets because they are the commercial versions. I do however take acception to the fact that you seem to write them off so casually. To get my boatmans ticket I had to do a 4 year apprenticeship as an assistant boatman (at Ramsgate) which meant I had to go out with an experienced boatman carrying passengers for "hire or reward".Most of my teachers were either Ramsgate lifeboat crew or even the coxon, because I took an interest these people were only to pleased to pass on their "experience" to me. They took the time to explain all different types of situations to me, how to handle a boat not only when its nice and flat calm but heavy weather stuff as well, how to feel the boat under you, to read the sea, to read your passengers, how to come along side a pot marker or another vessel in a gale without killing anyone, all this and much more, I am truely grateful to these people because they took the time to pass on their knowledge to me which I believe makes me a better person at handling boats of all types. Your right if I had simply taken an RYA course I maybe a bit "iffy" as I could just go off and sail 1 boat for the rest of my life but thats not the case with me as I still have regular use of a RIB, 4 workboats, trawler, and 2 yachts, so yes I think that I get enough "experience" to keep me up-to-date. I deliver yachts and powerboats to destinations in the UK, France, Belgium and Holland and because I run my own business I can't afford the time anymore to deliver boats to the Med etc but thats my choice.
I will leave you with 2 pearls of wisdom that the ex coxon of the Ramsgate lifeboat taught me and I have lived by:
1) In a rescue situation there is always a lot of noise what with wind and waves,,,, ignore it,, its only noise.
2) Never run round a boat always walk,, you only have to worry when I stand on the gunwhale shouting "we're all gonna die, where all gonna die" until then dont panic?
regards
Peter
NigeCh, your probably right 2500 miles isn't that far, but I did say it was a minimum and if I don't get them in I will lose my tickets because they are the commercial versions. I do however take acception to the fact that you seem to write them off so casually. To get my boatmans ticket I had to do a 4 year apprenticeship as an assistant boatman (at Ramsgate) which meant I had to go out with an experienced boatman carrying passengers for "hire or reward".Most of my teachers were either Ramsgate lifeboat crew or even the coxon, because I took an interest these people were only to pleased to pass on their "experience" to me. They took the time to explain all different types of situations to me, how to handle a boat not only when its nice and flat calm but heavy weather stuff as well, how to feel the boat under you, to read the sea, to read your passengers, how to come along side a pot marker or another vessel in a gale without killing anyone, all this and much more, I am truely grateful to these people because they took the time to pass on their knowledge to me which I believe makes me a better person at handling boats of all types. Your right if I had simply taken an RYA course I maybe a bit "iffy" as I could just go off and sail 1 boat for the rest of my life but thats not the case with me as I still have regular use of a RIB, 4 workboats, trawler, and 2 yachts, so yes I think that I get enough "experience" to keep me up-to-date. I deliver yachts and powerboats to destinations in the UK, France, Belgium and Holland and because I run my own business I can't afford the time anymore to deliver boats to the Med etc but thats my choice.
I will leave you with 2 pearls of wisdom that the ex coxon of the Ramsgate lifeboat taught me and I have lived by:
1) In a rescue situation there is always a lot of noise what with wind and waves,,,, ignore it,, its only noise.
2) Never run round a boat always walk,, you only have to worry when I stand on the gunwhale shouting "we're all gonna die, where all gonna die" until then dont panic?
regards
Peter
NigeCh
New member
The trouble with words
is that they are final. I don't know it all - My initial learning was on fishing boats out of Ilfracombe in the 50's and 60's. The boat crews were all RNLI and they equally shared their learning through experience with the eager youngster that I was then.
One of them, who died a few years ago, told me that the more you think you know about boats and the seas, the more you realise how little you know. It's a maxim that's still with me today.
Peter, Yours was a very nice post - Thanks.
Nige
is that they are final. I don't know it all - My initial learning was on fishing boats out of Ilfracombe in the 50's and 60's. The boat crews were all RNLI and they equally shared their learning through experience with the eager youngster that I was then.
One of them, who died a few years ago, told me that the more you think you know about boats and the seas, the more you realise how little you know. It's a maxim that's still with me today.
Peter, Yours was a very nice post - Thanks.
Nige
NigeCh
New member
RYA Exams Upside-Down?
Shallowness and short sea handling on a lee shore in a nice fresh breeze don't appear to be part of any RYA Practical. But a nice lazy few summer days will give you a piece of paper to say that you are competent. It's just the same as day sails on all types of yachts where they are reviewed for magazines .... Those reviews are just as meaningless as RYA Practical Exams in balmy conditions.
IMO, (as you say) coastal sailing is far more difficult than ocean sailing.
Shallowness and short sea handling on a lee shore in a nice fresh breeze don't appear to be part of any RYA Practical. But a nice lazy few summer days will give you a piece of paper to say that you are competent. It's just the same as day sails on all types of yachts where they are reviewed for magazines .... Those reviews are just as meaningless as RYA Practical Exams in balmy conditions.
IMO, (as you say) coastal sailing is far more difficult than ocean sailing.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: The trouble with words
Nige
I only left you with 2 pearls, I'm glad I didn't go for the third because you just quoted it back to me
cheers
Peter
Nige
I only left you with 2 pearls, I'm glad I didn't go for the third because you just quoted it back to me
cheers
Peter
peterb
New member
Re: Yachtmaster exams
Who said you have to do 24 weeks at night school? Whoever it was, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
There are seven requirements to meet in becoming a Yachtmaster Offshore. They are:
- You must have spent at least 50 days on board
- You must have sailed at least 2500 miles
- You must have had at least 5 days as skipper
- You must have made at least 5 passages over 60 miles of which 2 must be as skipper and two be overnight
- You must hold a Radio operator's Certificate (normally the Restricted (VHF only) or SRC certificate)
- You must hold an approved First Aid certificate, and lastly (but most importantly)
- You must satisfy a Yachtmaster Examiner that you have reached the necessary standard of sailing and skippering.
Notice: nothing in there about night school. Yes, if you reckon that your knowledge isn't up to scratch then you can take a course (theoretical or practical), but there's nothing in the rules to say you have to.
Who said you have to do 24 weeks at night school? Whoever it was, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
There are seven requirements to meet in becoming a Yachtmaster Offshore. They are:
- You must have spent at least 50 days on board
- You must have sailed at least 2500 miles
- You must have had at least 5 days as skipper
- You must have made at least 5 passages over 60 miles of which 2 must be as skipper and two be overnight
- You must hold a Radio operator's Certificate (normally the Restricted (VHF only) or SRC certificate)
- You must hold an approved First Aid certificate, and lastly (but most importantly)
- You must satisfy a Yachtmaster Examiner that you have reached the necessary standard of sailing and skippering.
Notice: nothing in there about night school. Yes, if you reckon that your knowledge isn't up to scratch then you can take a course (theoretical or practical), but there's nothing in the rules to say you have to.
Gunfleet
New member
Re: Yachtmaster exams
v. interesting. So do you know anyone who's done it without the shore based thingy - I mean apart from obvious candidates like ex Merchant navy deck officers and the like? I don't mind mugging up on my lights and fog signals but spending a year listening to people cranking through tidal calculations to 10 decimetres (like, who's going to anchor where 10 decimetres matters?) fills me with gloom.
v. interesting. So do you know anyone who's done it without the shore based thingy - I mean apart from obvious candidates like ex Merchant navy deck officers and the like? I don't mind mugging up on my lights and fog signals but spending a year listening to people cranking through tidal calculations to 10 decimetres (like, who's going to anchor where 10 decimetres matters?) fills me with gloom.
G
Guest
Guest
Post deleted by danfoley
BrendanS
Well-known member
Re: ??? ???
>>How many people do you know that hold RYA Yachmasters certificates that you would not trust to do an overnight channel crossing with them on watch whilst you were below off watch??? --- That is, IMO, the minimum measure of assessment.<<
Nige,
With the wealth of years of experience behind you, it's very easy for you to take your stance. Me, I'm about to start a Yachtmaster shore based course, with a practical to follow when I have the time. Why? Certainly not because I have to - no legal requirement. Because I want to, and I didn't grow up where fishermen could impart their hard gained knowledge. Don't have time to hang around bars in clubs on South coast where I could pick up a mish mash of relevant or otherwise information, as I work very long hours. So my only alternative is to pay someone to impart the information I think I need.
I can navigate well, years of hill walking and climbing (with mountain rescue team), years in ATC taking met and nav exams, flying planes, gliders and hang gliders have seen to that (by the way, nautical plotters like the breton are vastly inferior to aeronautical versions) and have undertaken many adventures at sea, and happily go out at night on my boat with GPS turned off to practise navigating by compass and lit (and unlit) bouys against a pre planned route. (In fact my powerboat club do this as an annual event).
I've read up on rules of the road, and colregs, can read a chart and tell what flashing lights I'm looking for, and plan a passage to an unknown harbour
However I want the confidence to know that I'm aware that I'm doing things correctly, or that when I'm not doing it by the book I'm clear of the reasons why. Planning for tides around headlands and the such, things that pilot training don't give you. The only way to make sure that I'm taught sensible advise is to pay for it, and having a set course where the trainers have been assessed against an RYA standard gives at least a little confidence that I'll get what I'm paying for.
I'd love to have the time to spend around harbours and marinas, and sailing with old salts who'd impart their wisdom. In the meantime, given a limited amount of time to gain the knowledge I'd like, the yachtmaster course seems like a pretty good option to me. Who knows, maybe that's why these courses were designed in the first place - not to create old salts who are comfortable in any conditions thrown at them, but to impart the basics needed to go on and learn how to become good seamen
Cheers, Brendan
>>How many people do you know that hold RYA Yachmasters certificates that you would not trust to do an overnight channel crossing with them on watch whilst you were below off watch??? --- That is, IMO, the minimum measure of assessment.<<
Nige,
With the wealth of years of experience behind you, it's very easy for you to take your stance. Me, I'm about to start a Yachtmaster shore based course, with a practical to follow when I have the time. Why? Certainly not because I have to - no legal requirement. Because I want to, and I didn't grow up where fishermen could impart their hard gained knowledge. Don't have time to hang around bars in clubs on South coast where I could pick up a mish mash of relevant or otherwise information, as I work very long hours. So my only alternative is to pay someone to impart the information I think I need.
I can navigate well, years of hill walking and climbing (with mountain rescue team), years in ATC taking met and nav exams, flying planes, gliders and hang gliders have seen to that (by the way, nautical plotters like the breton are vastly inferior to aeronautical versions) and have undertaken many adventures at sea, and happily go out at night on my boat with GPS turned off to practise navigating by compass and lit (and unlit) bouys against a pre planned route. (In fact my powerboat club do this as an annual event).
I've read up on rules of the road, and colregs, can read a chart and tell what flashing lights I'm looking for, and plan a passage to an unknown harbour
However I want the confidence to know that I'm aware that I'm doing things correctly, or that when I'm not doing it by the book I'm clear of the reasons why. Planning for tides around headlands and the such, things that pilot training don't give you. The only way to make sure that I'm taught sensible advise is to pay for it, and having a set course where the trainers have been assessed against an RYA standard gives at least a little confidence that I'll get what I'm paying for.
I'd love to have the time to spend around harbours and marinas, and sailing with old salts who'd impart their wisdom. In the meantime, given a limited amount of time to gain the knowledge I'd like, the yachtmaster course seems like a pretty good option to me. Who knows, maybe that's why these courses were designed in the first place - not to create old salts who are comfortable in any conditions thrown at them, but to impart the basics needed to go on and learn how to become good seamen
Cheers, Brendan
