Yachmaster Ocean theory

[barrybridges]

Hi!

I have my Day Skipper theory and I'm thinking about starting something more advanced theory-wise to occupy my evenings now that the rain has set in.

The question is, I'm not sure whether to go for the Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Offshore or jump straight up to the Yachtmaster Ocean.

I really enjoyed the Day Skipper and didn't find it too challenging, and I don't want to take the Coastal skipper course only to find it repeats most of the Day Skipper.

In terms of practical experience, I've been sailing for a few years and think I'm pretty clued up on most things - I took my day skipper practice a few years ago.

Any advice? If I jump up to the Yachmaster Ocean will I be able to fill in any gaps that the Coastal Skipper would have provided, or is the gulf too wide?

Thanks!

 

[CSFenwick]

The 2 are completely different. Ocean is predominantly astro-nav which I suspect most people do out of interest rather than practical benefit. If you do mostly coastal cruising with the odd longer passage then YM offshore would be my advice. Yes it does repeat a lot of DS but you go into more depth and there are some new topics covered.

 

[wotayottie]

I've done all three. Whilst I agree that much of the YM theory is a repeat of the DS theory (depends a bit on the DS teacher since the syllabus is a bit vague), the Ocean has not much in common with either and tbh its not much use unless you are going ocean sailing either.

the ocean theory is basically three things - astro (fat lot of use in the cloudy UK), tropical weather (tropical revolving storms etc) and passage planning / provisioning for long distance. interesting but irrelevant to UK coastal sailing - at least ubtil global warming really gets here..

best advice is to gird up your loins and do the YM proper. you will learn a lot from that I promise you.

 

[barrybridges]

Interesting - I'd be interested in seeing other opinions too, but I should probably clarify that I'm doing it more 'just for fun' as for practical benefit. Call me sad, but I really like the theory side of things - I'm a bit of a stickler for doing things properly.

I do find the idea of a Global Warming Yachtmaster quite entertaining...!

 

[davierobb]

Have done all three and found the CS/YM slightly more advanced than the DS, especially the col regs area. As previously said by others the YM Ocean is more about celestial navigation and I found this very interesting. If you have the time/money and inclination then I would do both but not at the same time.

 

[WowdyWebel]

I'm doing the Coastal/YM theory at the moment by way of a correspondence course, having previously done the DS theory.

I am finding it fairly repetitive - variation, deviation, lights, tides, ep's, cts, pilotage etc etc. In the course I am doing there is a bit of an obsession with secondary ports (to the extent of adjusting a 10cm difference in tidal level). If one can get over that it is useful for ramming home methodology which I guess would be useful if one found oneself in a pickle. That said I doubt you would find any concepts you are unfamiliar with.

Not sure I can be bothered with the exam although may do. I actually toying with the idea of doing the Offshore proper course after this one but out of academic interest rather than anything else sadly.

Hope this helps

 

[barrybridges]

WowdyWebel - that was my concern. But am open-minded, so not sure which one I'll choose!

I am thinking of going through the Tiller School as that's who I did the Day Skipper with - and they were very good.

 

[whipper_snapper]

I think the idea is that you become fast and comfortable with such calculations. My advice is take the 10cm with a pinch of salt BUT use it as a way of checking your speed and accuracy. Most people who do such things for real, as opposed to for exams, develop their own ways of doing it that suits their brain. That is what you should be aiming for - not simply following a laid out method. When you come to do your YM prac, the examiner is interested in how quick, confident and accurate you are about how much water is under your boat and not about how you worked it out.


That, IMHO, is the essential difference between YM and DS theory.

As for Ocean, I do not have a YM Ocean but I am in the process of boning up on astro (with the help of Cunliffe's book) for what I hope will be a qualifying passage coming up. As has been said, it is very specialised and apart from the astro I am not sure what a theory course will teach you - maybe the stuff about TRS which takes about 5 mins. The frustrating thing about astro is that (for me) you use it or loose it. I was pretty good 10 years ago but find I am starting again from scratch. So just doing it as a mental exercise does seem a bit futile. You would be better off learning Chinese!

Just my personal view. HTH.

 

[Richard10002]

I recently did YM Offshore theory, prep and practical. My crew for the last day of prep and the exam were 2 people doing their Dayskipper.

The difference in standards between DS and YM is quite substantial and I learned loads more than I could have imagined - and I still dont know enough.

In addition, you have to have YM Offshore to take the Ocean exam.

The difference between us is that I had 30 years experience, but no formal training, prior to YM, so I'm sure there will be some repetition for you, but it will be stricter and reinforcing... I dont think you will lose anything by doing it, and will probably be pleasantly surprised at what you gain.

 

[snowleopard]

The two key points that have emerged from the above are (a) if you want the formal qualifications, you must take the YM Offshore before you can do the Ocean* (b) the Coastal Skipper & YM Offshore syllabus is more of the same if you have done Dazed Kipper so if you're just doing it out of interest, the Ocean syllabus will suit as it doesn't overlap any of the others.

The Ocean isn't pure astro, though that is 70% of the content. You also have to learn about worldwide ocean currrents and weather systems e.g. Indian Ocean Monsoons and some fairly detailed work on Tropical Revolving Storms and a bit on passage planning and management.

* I actually took my Ocean exam before my Offshore practical and the Ocean examiner held on to the papers until I notified him that I had passed the Offshore so it can be done but not officially!

 

[barrybridges]

Thanks for all of your advice!

I think I am going to take the Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Offshore first, then perhaps try my hand at the YM Ocean next year.

As I said, I do these things more for fun than anything else (I don't intend to take any round-the-world voyages just yet!) but I guess there is plenty of benefit and no harm whatsoever in repeating some of the DS stuff in the Coastal course.

Thanks!

B.

 

[mikebirch]

I teach Yachmaster Coastal theory at my Yacht Club and have taken the Ocean course. As others have said they are entirely different from each other.

It is also true that most of the subjects covered on the YM coastal are those covered by the Day Skipper course and when I studied it I did find it a bit repetitive. However there is a lot of building on what you already know and in some instances it is signifigcant - otherwise our students who already have Day Skipper wouldnt find they had to work as hard as they do in order to pass.

I know that secondary port calculations can seem an irrelevance when the differences are small but there are places where the differences are large and doing it properly is significant - if I have a beef with the RYA it is that the training almanac doesnt use these areas of large difference.

Metereology and Collision regulations are both dealt with in far greater depth for YM than for DS.

To answer your question - if you have an interest in the theoretical aspects of astro or are planning a blue water trip then do Ocean but as otheres have said the decision about YM coastal is an entirely separate decision.

But enjoy whatever you do

 

[Jamesuk]

Well i am just doing Ocean theory as i type (multi tasking) If only it were as simple as yacht master theory. the two are almost totally different but really if you do Ocean first i think you will appreciate so much more what GPS and electronics have done for the navies. Declination, Zenith distance, local hour angle, index error. All facinating but you will have to buy yourself a sextant and all the books to go with it, ahhhh i just remembered your original post - bad weather well you will need clear skies to do this so NO keep with the YM theory.

James

 

[DeeGee]

Well, if you are really a dilletante and want to learn the theory for theory's sake, you dont really need to do a course on either. The main difference between YM and DS is passage-planning and blind navigation. These are pretty practical, and are a good reason to do the YM practical. The YMO is mostly pure theory, and you can do it yourself from books, far more (theoretical) fun than going to a course and getting mechanistic procedures off pat without really understanding properly the underlying theory. Do it yourself, you can always re-figure out the procedure from the theory; do it by rote, and you'll be stumped when you find yourself clutching a sextant in one hand, Norie in the other as your boat electrics get zapped by lightning and your YMO course notes are a soggy mess in the bilges.

 

[Sailfree]

The day skipper practical automatically entitles you to the International Certificate of Competence (ICC) that is the only and most basic piece of paper that is of value. While the ICC is optional in the UK it is compulsary in most EU countries. If you are stopped in another country they may not understand that can sail without an ICC nor the exact legal position. On a British registered boat you dont need it but most charter companies would require you to have one. DS and ICC may be some insurance co requirement if you wish to own a boat.

The Day Skipper practical teaches you basic boat handling and sailing and should not be missed IMHO.

The Yacht Master theory and practical are the next big step with coastal skipper being awarded to those that try YM and are not quite up to the standard or those not having the 2500 qualifying miles (CS is only 1250Mls). I did it and effectively it forced me to learn the theory rather than be lazy but in reality its only another boy scouts badge to put on your sleeve but it did enable us get insurance cover to sail to Spain. It will repeat some of the DS theory unfortunately but if you feel competent buy a book read up on the bits you don't know and take the exam. Remember collision regs pass mark is 80%.

If you are going to skipper a boat and effectively be responsible for others lives I recommend doing YM theory and practical and in addition the First Aid and Sea survival. 99.9% of sailors never need any of these just a degree of competence and experience but I would hate to be the one that was responsible in the event of a problem due to lack of learning especially if someone was injured.

I did the YM Ocean as I thought I might learn something but apart from a greater understanding of weather systems it was not much use. I never expect to use a sextant again and in fact would not dream of trying without a refresher course and as I don't intend to sail any oceans I did it out of interrest rather than thinking it would be of use.

The biggest problem I find is to keep ocassionally practising the basic navigation as with a chartplotter and GPS its all so effortless.

The course that I would really find usefull would be one to be able to fully use all the facilities available on the Raymarine Chartplotter/radar E series with the Navionics Platinium card as I am struggling to get the panaramic photo icons back after some "B" altered the settings and lost them!

 

[barrybridges]

I think the latter course you're referring to would be a bible in its own right - trying to get round all the settings and facilities on an electronic chart plotter can be a course in itself!

It's quite interesting to know about the ICC - to be honest, I had no idea about this until you mentioned it. When I took my day skipper they didn't tell me what the ICC was or how it worked. Do I need to apply to obtain one?

 

[Sailfree]

In the Uk the RYA are the authorised body to issue the ICC. My understanding is that in many other countries the ICC is issued by a government body after passing a stiff test of competence (similar to say the driving test in the Uk). If you are a member of the RYA you send in your day skipper certificate and they return it with a ICC that used to be free for RYA members. Note you are meant to be a UK national

I am aware of one Frenchman that sought to go the RYA route as he considered the French equivalent test demanding.

When other countries want what you have you know it worth while having it yourself!!

 

[alant]

I teach all three courses & would offer the following observations, some points already having been made.

(1) Most people having just done DS theory, if having done little previous navigation, are still at a stage of bewilderment & need to practice it until they are much more proficient.

(2) CS/YM Theory does offer much more than DS & is best undertaken when more experienced, in order to get the best out of it. Yes many of the topics are repeated - usually in much more depth, but still worthwhile.

(3) Unless the candidate is up to YM Theory standard, not necessarily having done it, I would not consider them for a YMO course. Yes, most of the 'difficult sums' part of the course is Celestial stuff & different to normal nav, but a knowlege of position lines & transferred position lines (not usually covered on DS theory) + more in depth plotting skills, is essential.

As already mentioned, in order to get a YMO certificate, you must have a theory ticket + completed ocean passage + required 'ocean' sights/plotted positions etc, these then sent to an examiner, who will normally quiz the candidate on a face-to-face basis, confirming their suitability for the award.
He will be assessing your capability in taking a crew over an Ocean - safely.
People forget, that when you are 1000+ Nm from a safe haven, you have to adopt a totally diferrent mindset to the one you might have when on a cruise off the Brittany Coast. When something goes wrong, however 'trivial', it could be much more than a simple inconvenience, it may be a life threatening catastrophy. Take nothing for granted!

Considering a simple 'jumping the step' from DS directly to YMO, is an example of the 'quick-fix experience not necessary' attitude we seem to be cultivating these days.

You cannot 'Fast track' experience & you owe it to the people you will be responsible for, not to try!

 

[barrybridges]

I wasn't viewing it as 'jumping the step', but as I indicated I was doing it more for fun than for anything else. I like to think my practical skills are pretty decent at present, but at the same time I don't intend to go on any cross-ocean jollies for a long while, so was considering YMO theory more for interest than anything else.

 

[scotty123]

Tom Cunliffe's book is a good start, if you want to get into Celestial Nav etc.