World War II Merchant Marine losses

Resolution

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I. Have been enjoying watching the recent TV series SAS Rogues, all action and drama. As ever, one questions how accurately real events have been represented. A fair bit of googling on related subjects with some thread drift led me to Malta. Having spent part of one summer sailing based in Malta, tales of the desperate defence and constant bombing struck a chord with me. The heroic efforts 80 years ago to replenish supplies , such as the crucial convoy with the tanker SS Ohio, were something I had read about with schoolboy awe.
But I had no idea of the scale of the conflict, summed up in this extract from Wikipedia:

Analysis[edit]
There were 35 large supply operations to Malta from 1940 to 1942. Operations White, Tiger, Halberd, MF5, MG1, Harpoon, Vigorous and Pedestal were turned back or suffered severe losses from Axis forces. There were long periods when no convoy runs were even attempted and only a trickle of supplies reached Malta by submarine or fast warship. The worst period for Malta was from December 1941 to October 1942, when Axis forces had air and naval supremacy in the central Mediterranean.[97]
Casualties[edit]
From June 1940 to December 1943, about 1,600 civilians and 700 soldiers were killed on Malta. The RAF lost about 900 men killed, 547 aircraft on operations and 160 on the ground and Royal Navy losses were 1,700 submariners and 2,200 sailors; about 200 merchant navy men died. Of 110 voyages by merchant ships to Malta 79 arrived, three to be sunk soon after reaching the island and one ship was sunk on a return voyage. Six of seven independent sailings failed, three ships being sunk, two were interned by Vichy authorities and one ship turned back. The Mediterranean Fleet lost a battleship, two aircraft carriers, four cruisers, a fast minelayer, twenty destroyers and minesweepers and forty submarines. Many small ships were sunk and many surviving ships were damaged.[98]

If you are still following this rambling post, here is a question for you knowledgable merchant marine guys:
Who owned the merchant ships on these convoys, who was paid for successful deliveries, who lost when ships were sunk or damaged? Was there any insurance market still operating?
 
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Concerto

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I believe the ships were requisitioned and the owners were compensated if the ship was lost. Not sure if any payments were made for their use.

The same occured during the Falklands war for the QEII, Canberra and other ships.
 

Frank Holden

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Small point of order. Britain has - ( OK 'had' - its now just an FOC ) - a Merchant Navy . Given this title by KG5 in an Order in the Court of St James (?) in 1919 in recognition of their losses in WW1.

The tanker wasn't 'Cairo' .... it was 'Ohio'. An American tanker placed under the Red Ensign with British crew as the UK didn't have any fast tankers suitable for the job. Her sister - 'Kentucky' - had been lost in an earlier convoy.

Britains finest cargo liners were used - and lost - in these convoys. Fast ships owned by the major liner companies.

Earlier in the war different methods were used Warsailors.com :: Ship Forum :: Re: Stanhope steamer PARRACOMBE sunk 1941
Single ships creeping along the North African coast. Jack Billmeir had made a fortune with blockade runners during the Spanish Civil War.
 

Pump-Out

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Who owned the merchant ships on these convoys, who was paid for successful deliveries, who lost when ships were sunk or damaged? Was there any insurance market still operating?
STUFT
Ship Taken Up From Trade

The shipping line retained responsibility for crewing and so forth. The cargo and sailing orders were determined by the Admiralty, insurances covered by The Crown. In effect, forcibly chartered.

The convoys were formed and protected by the Admiralty. Until recent years the RNR had a branch that still delt with convoys.

Does that help?
 

Richard10002

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I. Have been enjoying watching the recent TV series SAS Rogues, all action and drama. As ever, one questions how accurately real events have been represented.

On the night of the airing of the first episode of SAS Rogue Heores, (The Drama), there were 3 episodes of SAS Rogue Warriors, which is a documentary of the actual events. Both are available on iPlayer.

Having watched 3 episodes of the drama, it seems "fairly" true to the documentary.

Having said that, I have to wonder why the first SAS mission chose to fly and parachute in the worst possible conditions, where several died, only to be met by another "special force" of Desert Truckers, Why on earth didnt they get the Desert Truckers to take them the whole way, thus removing the risk of the flight and parachuting?
 

Resolution

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The tanker wasn't 'Cairo' .... it was 'Ohio'. An American tanker placed under the Red Ensign with British crew as the UK didn't have any fast tankers suitable for the job. Her sister - 'Kentucky' - had been lost in an earlier convoy.
Doh! My brain is addled. I knew it should have been the Ohio but made the error. Now corrected.
 

Resolution

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STUFT
Ship Taken Up From Trade

The shipping line retained responsibility for crewing and so forth. The cargo and sailing orders were determined by the Admiralty, insurances covered by The Crown. In effect, forcibly chartered.

The convoys were formed and protected by the Admiralty. Until recent years the RNR had a branch that still delt with convoys.

Does that help?
What kind of insurance was possible? Surely not War Risks?
 

Neeves

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You lost your ship, the government paid, war risks or not.
The Government paid - but they never paid for the loss of life. Wives lost husbands, children lost fathers. The men lost had taken a career at sea in the 30's and became embroiled in a conflict they had not chosen (The War to end all Wars had put that one to bed) - they stuck to their chosen career. Thousands drowned lonely deaths, their names are not recorded on war memorials not easily found in the PRO records. Many of the merchant ships were not in a convoy but sailed solo ..... down the Atlantic to SA, back from SA to join convoy at Halifax, etc etc. Many of the ships were 'foreign' with foreign crew - Dutch etc etc.

The siege of Malta is rightly recorded and well documented - who knows of the lonely merchantmen who sailed to the outposts of Empire - and simply disappeared.

Unrecorded quiet heroes

The owners may have been paid

The father-less children.....??

Jonathan
 

Frank Holden

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The longest battle of the Second World War was the Battle of the Atlantic - started in September 39, ended in May 45.

Losses pro rata in the MN were greater than any of the three services.

Little known factoid - there was a Clan Line cadet who survived three Malta convoys before he was of legal age to join the military.

Few ships simply 'disappeared' although many sailing alone were lost.

A substantial (100%?) war bonus was payed although pay did stop on the day your ship was sunk.

In the RN that was also the case until the loss of HMS Wager - one of Anson's squadron, on the southern coast of Golfo de Penas, Chile.
Stuck on what is now Isla Wager Captain Cheap tried to assert his authority but the response was essentially ' get stuffed - we are off pay - therefore you can get stuffed....'

The RN changed the rules after that.

Added bit
The Merchant Navy in World War II
 
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Neeves

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In the RN that was also the case until the loss of HMS Wager - one of Anson's squadron, on the southern coast of Golfo de Penas, Chile.
Stuck on what is now Isla Wager Captain Cheap tried to assert his authority but the response was essentially ' get stuffed - we are off pay - therefore you can get stuffed....'

The RN changed the rules after that.

Good coverage is provided in Shankland's book 'Byron of the Wager', Byron was grandfather to the poet.


For the immediate relatives ships simply 'disappeared' how or where was simply not known. If it was your kith and kin you wanted certainty - which sometime took years to define. Eventually hope was lost - and certainty, the how and the where, sometimes took too long.

Jonathan
 

Biggles Wader

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Small point of order. Britain has - ( OK 'had' - its now just an FOC ) - a Merchant Navy . Given this title by KG5 in an Order in the Court of St James (?) in 1919 in recognition of their losses in WW1.

The tanker wasn't 'Cairo' .... it was 'Ohio'. An American tanker placed under the Red Ensign with British crew as the UK didn't have any fast tankers suitable for the job. Her sister - 'Kentucky' - had been lost in an earlier convoy.

Britains finest cargo liners were used - and lost - in these convoys. Fast ships owned by the major liner companies.

Earlier in the war different methods were used Warsailors.com :: Ship Forum :: Re: Stanhope steamer PARRACOMBE sunk 1941
Single ships creeping along the North African coast. Jack Billmeir had made a fortune with blockade runners during the Spanish Civil War.
Correct! Although there was HMS Cairo, a RN cruiser that was sunk by aircraft on the same convoy. About ten years ago I met one of the crew who was pleased to see I knew about Pedestal.
 

dunedin

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The longest battle of the Second World War was the Battle of the Atlantic - started in September 39, ended in May 45.

Losses pro rata in the MN were greater than any of the three services.
When clearing out my grandfathers house I found a diary from a great uncle that I never knew. He served in the Merchant Navy through both WW1 and WW2, doing Atlantic convoys for nearly 10 years - and scarily down in the engine room, starting as stoked and ending up engineering officer.
Left three illustrated little notes which showed he had come through three sinkings by torpedo & mines. Quite a survivor, but must have lost many of his friends. Also a few sparse notes on some of the places visited, including Artic Russia.
Amazing bravery and service. Sadly lost his only son in the RN in WW2.
 

Frogmogman

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I. Have been enjoying watching the recent TV series SAS Rogues, all action and drama. As ever, one questions how accurately real events have been represented. A fair bit of googling on related subjects with some thread drift led me to Malta. Having spent part of one summer sailing based in Malta, tales of the desperate defence and constant bombing struck a chord with me. The heroic efforts 80 years ago to replenish supplies , such as the crucial convoy with the tanker SS Ohio, were something I had read about with schoolboy awe.
But I had no idea of the scale of the conflict, summed up in this extract from Wikipedia:

Analysis[edit]
There were 35 large supply operations to Malta from 1940 to 1942. Operations White, Tiger, Halberd, MF5, MG1, Harpoon, Vigorous and Pedestal were turned back or suffered severe losses from Axis forces. There were long periods when no convoy runs were even attempted and only a trickle of supplies reached Malta by submarine or fast warship. The worst period for Malta was from December 1941 to October 1942, when Axis forces had air and naval supremacy in the central Mediterranean.[97]
Casualties[edit]
From June 1940 to December 1943, about 1,600 civilians and 700 soldiers were killed on Malta. The RAF lost about 900 men killed, 547 aircraft on operations and 160 on the ground and Royal Navy losses were 1,700 submariners and 2,200 sailors; about 200 merchant navy men died. Of 110 voyages by merchant ships to Malta 79 arrived, three to be sunk soon after reaching the island and one ship was sunk on a return voyage. Six of seven independent sailings failed, three ships being sunk, two were interned by Vichy authorities and one ship turned back. The Mediterranean Fleet lost a battleship, two aircraft carriers, four cruisers, a fast minelayer, twenty destroyers and minesweepers and forty submarines. Many small ships were sunk and many surviving ships were damaged.[98]

If you are still following this rambling post, here is a question for you knowledgable merchant marine guys:
Who owned the merchant ships on these convoys, who was paid for successful deliveries, who lost when ships were sunk or damaged? Was there any insurance market still operating?
The real connection between what the fledgling SAS were up to in the desert, and the defence of Malta, is that what really caused Rommel to grind to a halt was running out of fuel and munitions. Churchill had described Malta as an “unsinkable aircraft carrier” and Rommel had Admitted that without Malta, he would lose in North Africa. Retaining Malta had become an existential issue for Britain, the heroism of the men on the suicidal convoys was as great as that of the people on the island.

The success against the Axis supply chain was largely because of the efforts of the airmen and submariners (such as Upholder, under Lt Cdr David Wanklyn VC, DSO and two bars) operating out of Malta, for whom the supplies brought in by the convoys was indispensable.

It is humbling to think of those all those men who gave their all to defeat fascism and to protect our freedoms. The contribution of the men of the merchant navy, so long overlooked, is now rightly given the belated recognition it always deserved.

We WILL remember them.
 

penfold

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Small point of order. Britain has - ( OK 'had' - its now just an FOC ) - a Merchant Navy . Given this title by KG5 in an Order in the Court of St James (?) in 1919 in recognition of their losses in WW1.
As carelessly managed as the red duster is it's not yet a FoC and it's still the merchant navy.
 

Frank Holden

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Good coverage is provided in Shankland's book 'Byron of the Wager', Byron was grandfather to the poet.

snip

Jonathan
And also 'The Wager Mutiny' by SWC Pack.

Good stuff can also be found here Patagonia - Books - Libros - Historia - History
Click on 'Shipwrecks'.
The voyage of the 'Speedwell' makes Bligh look like a fair weather sailor.
Spending time around the area Cheap covered getting north from the site of the wreck around the eastern shore of Golfo de Penas is my last project in the south. That includes visiting von Spee's 1914 anchorage at Bahia San Quintin.

Sorry about the thread drift.
 
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