Woodworking techniques...inlaid gunwales on a keelboat...

[Iain C]

Some of you may have been following my rebuild of a 50 year old Fifteen on this forum...http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?330889-Saved-from-the-bonfire-new-project!

Well, I've got the stbd gunwale on now, but I'm not 100% happy on the join between the very old deck and the new gunwale...the gap isn't totally consistent, and I'm reluctant to do too much sanding of the epoxy as it will be easy to go through the top layer of ply on the decks. So to eliminate the join, I was thinking about routing a slot directly over the join and fitting a contrasting, light coloured inlaid wood strip, just like the Fireball here...

http://www.severnsailboats.co.uk/repairand refurb.html

However, this is a high risk job...no going back once the router is running! Question...has anyone done this, and can they give me any tips? I was thinking rout a slot, epoxy the strip in, and take it back with a spokeshave or similar. Is it ok to use pine?

Please let me know, and could I also ask that if you've not actually done this, say so. I'm open to good ideas on this, but there is a huge gulf between an armchair expert who "might" do it like this, and someone with experience of doing this tricky job!

Thanks!

 

[john_morris_uk]

Some of you may have been following my rebuild of a 50 year old Fifteen on this forum...http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?330889-Saved-from-the-bonfire-new-project!

Well, I've got the stbd gunwale on now, but I'm not 100% happy on the join between the very old deck and the new gunwale...the gap isn't totally consistent, and I'm reluctant to do too much sanding of the epoxy as it will be easy to go through the top layer of ply on the decks. So to eliminate the join, I was thinking about routing a slot directly over the join and fitting a contrasting, light coloured inlaid wood strip, just like the Fireball here...

http://www.severnsailboats.co.uk/repairand refurb.html

However, this is a high risk job...no going back once the router is running! Question...has anyone done this, and can they give me any tips? I was thinking rout a slot, epoxy the strip in, and take it back with a spokeshave or similar. Is it ok to use pine?

Please let me know, and could I also ask that if you've not actually done this, say so. I'm open to good ideas on this, but there is a huge gulf between an armchair expert who "might" do it like this, and someone with experience of doing this tricky job!

Thanks!

I haven't done it, but it sounds like a very good idea. I assume you will use a fence on the router to allow the cutting bit to run up the slightly wobbly 'join area'? So long as its not too deep, then I can't see any disadvantages. Pine sounds acceptable if you can get the real stuff? Spokeshave and then a palm sander (or sand by hand?) sounds like a good plan as well. A very small 'block plane' would be my choice as my spokeshave isn't very good.

 

[srp]

Should be quite easy. You need to choose a cutter that is wide enough for the variable gap obviously. If you use the router fence against the gunwhale or deck edge, remember that because this is curved, and the curve varies, so that will also affect how far the cutter is from the edge. Easy to check this with a dry run though. If you have a problem with the fence running smoothly you could stick a couple of half-round dowels on it, one at each end. A BIG BUT - at the bow and stern you will need to make sure the fence has something to bear against.
An alternative to using the router fence is to clamp a flexible batten on the side deck a suitable distance from the edge - this assumes access for the clamps (I assume you can't screw it down in place. Double sided tape might work if you think you can trust it).
The big risk is that the router fence is only referencing one edge, so it could creep to the outside if you aren't careful. I'm not sure there is a practical way of making sure the router fence stays firmly against the deck edge apart from care and common sense. Unfortunately, drifting is more likely to occur when you cut a slot the width of the cutter, as opposed to cutting a rebate. A series of light cuts rather than one or two deep ones will help.
Choose a light router with a 1/4" collet, and buy a new cutter (maybe even two if there's a risk of damage from hardened glue or screws. Something from here http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_1_4__shank_237.html will be fine, as they are suitable for plunge cutting. Short cutters are better as there will be more accuracy and less vibration.
There are other tips that could help - using a bearing guided cutter against a curved guide maybe, and making up an extended router base to help in keeping the router flat on the deck during the cut.
Ordinary pine (redwood), usually sold as planed, from a decent timber merchant, NOT BandQ or Homebase, is fine - cheap, more durable than most other common choices, and easy to flex into place. You will have to scarf shorter sections to get the full length probably, unless you can find someone with a good clean board prepared to rip a very thin section for you.
Finally, if it all goes titsup with the grooving, you'll have to change the plan and go for a rebated edge instead!

 

[xeitosaphil]

Some of you may have been following my rebuild of a 50 year old Fifteen on this forum...http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?330889-Saved-from-the-bonfire-new-project!

Well, I've got the stbd gunwale on now, but I'm not 100% happy on the join between the very old deck and the new gunwale...the gap isn't totally consistent, and I'm reluctant to do too much sanding of the epoxy as it will be easy to go through the top layer of ply on the decks. So to eliminate the join, I was thinking about routing a slot directly over the join and fitting a contrasting, light coloured inlaid wood strip, just like the Fireball here...

http://www.severnsailboats.co.uk/repairand refurb.html

However, this is a high risk job...no going back once the router is running! Question...has anyone done this, and can they give me any tips? I was thinking rout a slot, epoxy the strip in, and take it back with a spokeshave or similar. Is it ok to use pine?

Please let me know, and could I also ask that if you've not actually done this, say so. I'm open to good ideas on this, but there is a huge gulf between an armchair expert who "might" do it like this, and someone with experience of doing this tricky job!

Thanks!

I also haven’t done it, but have many years of router work. I assume you are going to use the outside of the gunwale as a guide, you must make sure there are no digs, bumps or hollows in it and it is a fair curve as you will be duplicating any discrepancies, or you could make up a spile board and work off the inside edge of the deck but that would be more involved. Suggest you extend router fence length to allow you to use forward and following half of fence to stay fixed to gunwale while routering past the deck ends. I think if it was me I would be inclined to use a pigmented epoxy for the filling as you will need to have a really good fit for the pine inlay or you will just have another two joints to look at. Epoxy would also be easier to fill and possibily cut back. If using epoxy treat it like a laid deck with tape both sides of groove and filll evel with tape leaving little to cut back later.
If using the pine inlay once fitted I suggest you cut back with a block plane near enough, and then finish with a box scraper which only has very thin shavings, but you will need to keep it sharp, finally sanding to a finish.

Best of luck with your project which ever you decide to do.

 

[bluemoongaffer]

Not done it either but have used the router on various jobs when building the boat. I don't think this would be an easy task for those of us without a lot of router experience. I find that any unevenness or difference in hardness (e.g. lumps of hardened epoxy) in the area you are cutting is apt to throw the router off course. You might try a very fine cut at first - level with the top of deck / gunwhale, to give you a flat surface to work on. This should just take off the top level and give you a smooth work area for further cutting (or just for for final fairing / painting

 

[earlybird]

Some of you may have been following my rebuild of a 50 year old Fifteen on this forum...http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?330889-Saved-from-the-bonfire-new-project!

Well, I've got the stbd gunwale on now, but I'm not 100% happy on the join between the very old deck and the new gunwale...the gap isn't totally consistent, and I'm reluctant to do too much sanding of the epoxy as it will be easy to go through the top layer of ply on the decks. So to eliminate the join, I was thinking about routing a slot directly over the join and fitting a contrasting, light coloured inlaid wood strip, just like the Fireball here...

http://www.severnsailboats.co.uk/repairand refurb.html

However, this is a high risk job...no going back once the router is running! Question...has anyone done this, and can they give me any tips? I was thinking rout a slot, epoxy the strip in, and take it back with a spokeshave or similar. Is it ok to use pine?

Please let me know, and could I also ask that if you've not actually done this, say so. I'm open to good ideas on this, but there is a huge gulf between an armchair expert who "might" do it like this, and someone with experience of doing this tricky job!

Thanks!

Best of luck with the routing job, I would find it daunting, but I don't think the Fireball in your example was made quite like that. I made a Scorpion with similar pine "inlays", but that was achieved by putting in the central pine strip on with the decking and then laminating the gunwhales with the contrasting woods. A very fine plane setting and glasspaper levelled it off. Wasn't too difficult.
The pro. builders worked like that and I think you would find the same with the Fireball.
Incidentally, one of the top Scorpion builders, who I was copying, was Westerly Boats, who later became Cornish Crabbers.

 

[Woodlouse]

If the router has a round base then your best bet for consistency is to attach a batten on the deck with hot glue. The round base of the router will then keep the bit a constant distance from the batten and ensure a constant curve that's as fair as the batten.

For planing it off afterwards a block plane would be much better than a spoke shave.

Nothing wrong with pine, but ideally any wood used will have a nice tight grain. Don't just go for Jewsons best.

 

[Hadenough]

If the router has a round base then your best bet for consistency is to attach a batten on the deck with hot glue. The round base of the router will then keep the bit a constant distance from the batten and ensure a constant curve that's as fair as the batten.

For planing it off afterwards a block plane would be much better than a spoke shave.

Nothing wrong with pine, but ideally any wood used will have a nice tight grain. Don't just go for Jewsons best.

Don't assume that the router base is round! I have two, one of which, a bottle router is round but my big "battle" router has an oval base --- don't ask!!

 

[srp]

If the router has a round base then your best bet for consistency is to attach a batten on the deck with hot glue. The round base of the router will then keep the bit a constant distance from the batten and ensure a constant curve that's as fair as the batten.

The problem is that the existing deck is the finished surface. If the hot glue does it's job properly it is likely to leave evidence of itself in the grain of the ply which will show when it's varnished, which is why I suggested clamping (or double sided tape as a very poor second choice). Having looked at the photos in the original thread though, using clamps is probably not possible becuase of the size of the foredeck and the style of the cockpit opening.

Maybe there is a chance of screwing some short battens in places where there will be fittings attached at a later date, and then attaching the 'fence' batten to these?

Once you've got a decent guide fixed firmly in place the actual routing itself is a piece of cake. If it was me I'd just use the existing gunwhale/ rubbing strake and the router fence.

 

[Blueboatman]

Couple of suggestions:
Fit a thin glued down capping over and along the existing joint. ( but be wary of water draining off).
2pack Paint the plywood instead of varnishing.

No? Thort not, ok..

Practise on sommat else with the router first

If it were me I would use a small dia router bit, initially to create a groove, then go back and 'make' one side of the slot, then go back again and make the other side, bearing in mind the direction of travel/rotation for clean cutting on the inner and outer faces of the groove, thus without cooking the router bit. On each pass you have somewhere for the router to throw off the waste, less chance to heat up or wander off..
It would be worth planing and smoothing the gunwale's edge ( from which you will fence the router and thus determine the position of the slot) until you know the slot will lie exactly where it looks best , and look best all along the boat.
This is your one chance to plane away at the gunwale if anywhere it looks oddly bulging, which it may well do if the inherent twist in it has created gaps or flares when you glued it in place).
You know that no matter how much wood you remove along the gunwale's outer edge (within reason!) , the new infill pine piece will run exactly parallel to the final planed edge. Which is exactly what you want, isnt it?
( sorry , wordy)

Lastly (!). Sneaky trick: use a tapered pine infill piece that wont quite bottom out when fitted into the slot, use a sloppy epoxy mix. The strip can now by tapped home gently with a mallet to fill any tiny differences in width along the slot . Then plane off when cured.

 

[Iain C]

Many thanks for the advice all...it's what I expected and all useful.

I'll stay away from pigmented epoxy...it will take a lot of sanding and I'll be risking sanding through the ply again. TBH the edges of the new gunwales are perfectly fair and will make a good guide for the router...it's only 20mm from the router edge to the join. WRT uneven gaps, we are probably talking less than 1mm variation...the issue is that because the old deck edge is very old and has been damaged...little nibbles here and there, it sticks out like a sore thumb. A 6mm wood strip or similar would hide 95% of the nibbles and just really even everything up.

There's no need to go right to the bow/stern...as you will see from the other thread both ends are new...it's the bit in the middle that's old! I could stop 3" short at each end and it would look very nice indeed.

Slowly talking myself into this...I did run a router all the way up the entire stbd side to give a cleaner 90 edge to glue the gunwale to and it was easy...one cut and plane off the 2mm of so left at the bottom that the router bit couldn't reach...this should in many ways be much easier...

 

[Woodlouse]

Top tip for removing excess epoxy. Once it's set, take a hot air gun, warm it up and use a scraper to scrape it off. Infinitely quicker than sanding.