bekasi
Active Member
Whats the life span of a properly constructed wooden diesel inboard vessel? Pros/cons of timber?
Wooden boat
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mad_boater
Well-Known Member
wooden boats
Imho unless you have a clasic boat built by a reputable maker and are prepared to have expensive regular work done on the rotten bits or your an expert carpenter think twice.My father had one for many years in the 50/60/70's my brother an me spent most of our formative years working on it.Its like painting the forth bridge it never stops.Grp may not have the same feel about it but prefer cruising on boats than working on them.Sorry if this sounds a bit negative but I speak from experiance.
Imho unless you have a clasic boat built by a reputable maker and are prepared to have expensive regular work done on the rotten bits or your an expert carpenter think twice.My father had one for many years in the 50/60/70's my brother an me spent most of our formative years working on it.Its like painting the forth bridge it never stops.Grp may not have the same feel about it but prefer cruising on boats than working on them.Sorry if this sounds a bit negative but I speak from experiance.
bekasi
Active Member
Hi mad boater,
Thanks...its info for a friend wishing to have one built.By wood I meant wood on the inner but heavy matrix of glass fibre and epoxy resin...it does look like GRP as the end product.Picture attachrd
Thanks...its info for a friend wishing to have one built.By wood I meant wood on the inner but heavy matrix of glass fibre and epoxy resin...it does look like GRP as the end product.Picture attachrd
moonraker 36
Well-Known Member
hmm.the only trouble i think with glassing wood is...
you end up with water between the the glass and the wood and it tends to rot the boat quicker!!(you will get water in the bilges from sturn glends and so on).
timber boats have have their own identiy, not very often you get two the same..
nothing wrong with getting a timber boat but i wouldnt have it glassed..
and yes their require alot of up keep.but can be very rewarding..
best of luck anyway.
you end up with water between the the glass and the wood and it tends to rot the boat quicker!!(you will get water in the bilges from sturn glends and so on).
timber boats have have their own identiy, not very often you get two the same..
nothing wrong with getting a timber boat but i wouldnt have it glassed..
and yes their require alot of up keep.but can be very rewarding..
best of luck anyway.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
If it is wood cored and epoxy sheathed, then in theory it should last as well as a GRP boat. The weak points will be where the skin is broken, for example deck fittings and where the superstructure is attached. Water can get in and rot the core. Repairs can be expensive and few people know how to work with this method.
Do not confuse this method of construction with traditional wood. It is composite in just the same way as GRP - but with wood core. Suggest you read up on epoxies - www.wessexresins.com is a good source as they are the distributors for West systems epoxies. The method of construction is popular for custom build than GRP because a simpler mould is used.
MapisM
Well-Known Member
After a decade of owning and cruising a wooden boat, I must second 100% your above statements.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
A well maintained wooden boat should easily out last it's owner. Most of the classics you see have already outlived several and are still going strong.
moonraker 36
Well-Known Member
my parents own and live on a timber crusier..(over 20yrs)
its a 44half foot rasc fast launch built 1944-46 by the british power boat company.
still going srong today..
its a 44half foot rasc fast launch built 1944-46 by the british power boat company.
still going srong today..
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
The folk at Spirit Yachts, not renowned for their crappy boats, would probably disagree with that. I didn't think that Fairey's, Levi's, etc. had wide-spread problem for hulls rotting either?
It has to be done properly and with good quality materials but that's true of any construction. It isn't exactly a cheap method of construction of course.
Other than that I find myself in the very dangerous position of dis-agreeing somewhat with MapisM and his rather extensive experience and knowledge as well as yourself
.moonraker 36
Well-Known Member
if you want a timber boat buy a timber boat.
if you want a grp boat get a grp boat..
why get a mixure of the two? wood flex's and need's to breath.
you may get the hull water tight but what about the topside's they will still shrink and swell with the weather?
what's the age of the oldest fairey-levi's etc?
i hope the o/p get's the boat of is dream's !!and i'll leave it at that..
if you want a grp boat get a grp boat..
why get a mixure of the two? wood flex's and need's to breath.
you may get the hull water tight but what about the topside's they will still shrink and swell with the weather?
what's the age of the oldest fairey-levi's etc?
i hope the o/p get's the boat of is dream's !!and i'll leave it at that..
MapisM
Well-Known Member
LOL, thanks for the appreciation, but actually I wouldn't call my own experience with wooden boats so extensive, really.
Anyway, I actually don't disagree with your comment: when done properly, wood cored grp has its place in boatbuilding.
But there are now also other materials which are better suited for coring a grp hull, because even when built properly, wooden cored grp remains at risk of rotting, for instance because of subsequent non-kosher fittings/repairs.
Truth be told, the only real plus of wood in boatbuilding nowadays is that there is no other material which can give a comparable liveability feeling, and even that applies only to 100% timber vessels, imho.
But under any other functional viewpoint, depending of the type of vessel, there are more logical material choices.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
There are Fairey Marine boats still around that are approaching 60 years old with no major problems. However, they weren't stuck together using epoxy and were made of good hardwoods.
The quality of the wood is the most important factor. A bad batch of timber will rot just as quick when entombed in epoxy as it will left in the open air.
PowerYachtBlog
Well-Known Member
The US apart inventing this technique are expert in so called cold molded boats. Many yards are actually legend in this: Rybovich, Merritt, Spencer, Jarrett Bay etc etc
Modern cold molding techniques where pioneered in 1989 altough using resins to protect wood has been used as much as in the 60s by Rybo or Merritt.
A cold molded boat can last as much a GRP boat, I can say even more. Many will also tell you it is a better build boat. Recent constructions like 2000 onwards from are all epoxy coated with glass and are lighter and stronger to any GRP boat.
You will have 2 problems, wait to build it, a cold molded needs from 1 to 3 years to build, and AWL GRP repainting outside every 10 years.
While many hear pinpoint to wood problems there is also an advantage. The shear strenght of wood is actually insupurable so far, and the lightness is also its advantage. Go on a well built wooden boat and you can see what I mean.
Mapis points are also valids but these problems cover also all balsa cored boats, and even other foam cored boats. Very few if any build a solid glass hull nowadays. Unless they dont use expensive Divinycell, Corecell, Airex you are worst to wood in these departments etc etc
Modern cold molding techniques where pioneered in 1989 altough using resins to protect wood has been used as much as in the 60s by Rybo or Merritt.
A cold molded boat can last as much a GRP boat, I can say even more. Many will also tell you it is a better build boat. Recent constructions like 2000 onwards from are all epoxy coated with glass and are lighter and stronger to any GRP boat.
You will have 2 problems, wait to build it, a cold molded needs from 1 to 3 years to build, and AWL GRP repainting outside every 10 years.
While many hear pinpoint to wood problems there is also an advantage. The shear strenght of wood is actually insupurable so far, and the lightness is also its advantage. Go on a well built wooden boat and you can see what I mean.
Mapis points are also valids but these problems cover also all balsa cored boats, and even other foam cored boats. Very few if any build a solid glass hull nowadays. Unless they dont use expensive Divinycell, Corecell, Airex you are worst to wood in these departments etc etc
Kilter
Well-Known Member
our wooden boat built 1977 has only had one rot issue in the past 10 years and that is the relarively simple matter of the main hatch lid marine ply. the rest of the boat is iroko and fine. She'll last for as long as people keep painting her! Pros: strong, looks great. Cons: there is more maintenance but not as much as some will tell you!
moonraker 36
Well-Known Member
are we all talking about a woodern boat getting glassed over?
or a grp boat with a bit of wood?
i was talking mainly about glassing a proper woodern boat..
or a grp boat with a bit of wood?
i was talking mainly about glassing a proper woodern boat..
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You are right. covering a wood boat with GRP is generally not a good idea as polyester resin does not adhere well to wood, is relatively brittle so does not move with the wood and can trap moisture.
However, from the look of the boat the OP was considering, it is a modern wood/epoxy composite which is a very different animal with its own good and not so good (few) features. There are many variations on the method and it is worth having a specialist surveyor familiar with the techniques as remedial work from poor construction or damage can be difficult.
bekasi
Active Member
info
I am no expert in this type but the build according to some of comments of this builder are as follows "the hull is of multi-ply treated timber,2x12mm on her lower topsides and 2x9mm on the upper with a 620gm double-bias glass epoxy composite sheathing setin an epoxy matrix.The plywood planking has allthe joints scarfed & is of two layers.The planking & the glass cloth were both vacum bagged to ensure glue contact and an even film to retain fairness.Minimal fastenings were used"
I am no expert in this type but the build according to some of comments of this builder are as follows "the hull is of multi-ply treated timber,2x12mm on her lower topsides and 2x9mm on the upper with a 620gm double-bias glass epoxy composite sheathing setin an epoxy matrix.The plywood planking has allthe joints scarfed & is of two layers.The planking & the glass cloth were both vacum bagged to ensure glue contact and an even film to retain fairness.Minimal fastenings were used"
Tranona
Well-Known Member
That is potentially a good form of construction. I have a sheathed ply boat from 1963 where the sheathed part of the boat (the hull) is in excellent condition. The use of scarphed panel joints and vacuum bagging is good - but it does not say whether it is sheathed both sides, nor whether it is framed. On a high performance planing hull such as that panel strength and rigidity is important to reduce flex and stress.
However, the biggest weakness of such boats is maintaining watertight integrity in the many above deck joints and where fittings are attached. Freshwater leaks do the damage. Any holes through the deck and superstructure should be well sealed, preferably with epoxy and teak decks should be glued on with no mechanical fastenings. Because of the complex shapes making all joints in the superstructure watertight is difficult and some boats actually use a moulded GRP superstructure to overcome these problems.
However, the biggest weakness of such boats is maintaining watertight integrity in the many above deck joints and where fittings are attached. Freshwater leaks do the damage. Any holes through the deck and superstructure should be well sealed, preferably with epoxy and teak decks should be glued on with no mechanical fastenings. Because of the complex shapes making all joints in the superstructure watertight is difficult and some boats actually use a moulded GRP superstructure to overcome these problems.
moonraker 36
Well-Known Member
so why build boats in this way?
if it is so important to keep the water out?as most boats will suffer from water ingress at some point in their life..wether from leaking window's -condesation or leaking deck fitting's.
i suppose the only benefit is that it will be light but strong.but then so is double diagonal planking..
if it is so important to keep the water out?as most boats will suffer from water ingress at some point in their life..wether from leaking window's -condesation or leaking deck fitting's.
i suppose the only benefit is that it will be light but strong.but then so is double diagonal planking..
Tranona
Well-Known Member
A good question. The flat surfaces of a planing hull lend themselves to building using panel materials more than rounder shapes, some of which are difficult to produce in wood. The biggest advantage is that a high quality mould is not needed as the boat's shape can be determined by the permanent framing or it can be built around temporary section moulds. Material and labour costs are not that much different from GRP and therefore custom or one off designs can be built competitively with GRP. Remember, only 25% of the cost of the boat is in the hull structure, and avoiding the cost of a mould is a big saving for one boat.
There will always be buyers who want something different from a mass produced production boat and this is one way of achieving it. It does however present problems for subsequent buyers as they are taking on both the requirements of the original owner and the unfamiliarity with the method of construction. Prices of such boats tend therefore to be lower in relation to their original build costs.