Wing sails for recreational and commercial boats

[sarabande]

Many of you may remember that excellent concept of the 1990s, Walker Wingsail Yachts.

John Walker, the inventor / developer has at last won a final court case against the liquidator and the DTI, and has now set up Shadotec to implement wingsails for large commercial vessels.

If you have any inkling of how important a contribution these devices could make to both commercial and recreational sailing, have a look at his website:

www.shadotec.com

[EDITED /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif]

Declaration of interest: I was a small investor in the original company, and am considering continued support of his work.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Errr - you sure about the url? I get

This Domain is for Sale

Sorry to announce that we decided to sell this domain
in URL(http://www.xxxxx.com) window to a third compay.

If you are interested, please contact us via e-mail



The domain name will be transferred to the buyer by using escrow service
at www.escrow.com or a direct transfer method.





Email: bank@dreamwiz.com (normal contact)
dom2000101@hotmail.com (only for emergency contact)
Mobile phone:+82.1075583648 /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Thistle]

Try www.shadotec.com

 

[Cornishman]

Interesting. I sailed in one of his early creations and was a witness in his libel case against Yachting World.
I am fairly sure that this concept has a future and was impressed with its performance.
Good luck to shadotec, and I will follow its future with more interest.

 

[wotayottie]

I too will be following with interest but I will not be investing.

 

[snowleopard]

I'm sure he will do well. He has an interesting way of dealing with unfavourable reviews.

I have never seen one under 'sail' but did watch one trying to berth under power in flat water and was seriously unimpressed. The one that is moored a few yards from me has no rig on it, a state of affairs that was not, I'm told, deliberate.

I have 10 sq m of wing mast area permanently deployed which is enough to get embarrassing in heavy weather if not fully controlled. The thought of having the whole rig up in all weathers regardless would make me very nervous, especially if it relied on a computer to keep it at the right angle. One must just pray that the computer doesn't run under Windows /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

OK Dan, I expect you'll can this but it's my personal opinion.

 

[pampas]

The Japanese tried a system on a coastal tanker in the 70s forecast to reduce fuel consumption bt some 15%, never heard any follow up to this projest. A royal Mail Lines ship rigged hatch tarps and "sailed some 2000 miles across the pond when her crank shaft broke and was able to refuse dep-sea towage sailing to within 5 miles off Barbados and used local tugs for docking, that was in the 60s so sail in any form can and should be used deep sea to reduce fuel and carbon cost, bear in mind these ship only did 14 Knt tops and in todays 20+ may not be viable.

 

[boatbuilder]

It depends on the investors that can be found, however I think on past history they might be a bit thin on the ground.

 

[photodog]

I think that some sort of wind assistance for commercial vessels is a good idea....especially if the cargo is less time sensitive, such as aggregates (?)

But, and this is from the site...

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, no wingsail can generate forward thrust from a wind blowing from directly ahead. However, with a device of really high aerodynamic efficiency such as a Walker wingsail you can get forward thrust from wind angles ranging from ± 25° off the ship's centre right round to 335° , leaving only a 50° dead zone. So altering course by as little as 30° can get the vessel sailing, and if she is using a combination of engine and wingsail, fuel consumption and pollution can both be reduced. If the vessel needs to maintain a course closer to the wind she can be tacked, and the wingsail will automatically tack too

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesnt really sound to me like this is any development beyond a normal Bermudan rig.... And actually seems to preclude any direct downwind work.

 

[snowleopard]

The difference between a wing and a soft-sail rig is the angle of attack at which optimum lift is produced. For a good sail this is of the order of 25° whereas the wing produces its best lift at around 6°. In theory this allows the wing to be closer-winded but it is a case of diminishing returns as the higher you point the more of the lift goes sideways and less forwards. I would expect a wing to be slightly better to windward but lousy on a run.

The option of tacking downwind will only work if the boat is very fast and lightweight so all they can do with the wingsail is put it square across the wind and as the configuration is 3 parallel wings, only a third of the area will be exposed to the wind.

 

[wingsail]

wing VS cloth

Now we know a Wing Sail can out Sail a Cloth Sail and perform better so

for all those sailors that would want a cruising wing go here some of the same designers who did BMWO worked on there wing

www.harborwingtech.com

This company has been into Wings Sail for years

 

[Bajansailor]

There is an interesting article about sail power for commercial ships in the current edition of the Naval Architect journal (published by the Royal Institution of Naval Architects - www.rina.org.uk ).

Click on http://content.yudu.com/A1la0f/TNAJ...m?referrerUrl=http://www.rina.org.uk/tna.html and then scroll forward to page 52 to get to the article.

The originators of this project are B9 Shipping - http://www.b9shipping.com - who appear to be proposing a similar rig to that used on the Maltese Falcon.

This looks like a much more worthwhile project than the one mentioned recently on Scuttlebutt where they wanted to build a brand new barque with traditional square sails for the North Atlantic container trade......

 

[dk]

Wingsail

Blatant plug or what?
Yes, wings have been around a long time, but they're not the ideal solution for leisure craft. If they were, then we'd see hundreds of boats using them.
The concept is interesting, as is the AeroRig and the canting mast, but did/would folk go for them? Look around!

 

[Sequoiah1]

very John Walker..............
what do they say about old dogs?????????

 

[snowleopard]

Now we know a Wing Sail can out Sail a Cloth Sail and perform better so

for all those sailors that would want a cruising wing go here some of the same designers who did BMWO worked on there wing

www.harborwingtech.com

This company has been into Wings Sail for years

A new user with 9 posts all promoting wing sails.

I think you should tell us precisely what your interests and affiliations are in this field.

 

[HoratioHB]

I mentioned in an earlier post that in the 80s I had prototyped a wing sail that was cambered, the camber could be changed, yet it could be tacked easily, it could be dropped and reefed like a normal sail and would only need a normal mast. From all the above posts it seems that the only current solutions are rigid sails which by definition must be inneficient as they cannot be cambered otherwise they would only work on one tack and a symmetrical aeroil only works at certain airpseeds, plus they are hard to reef etc etc. should I be talking to someone about my idea and if so - any recommendations about who??

 

[davidej]

I worked for a bank and went to see John Wheeler in the 70's.

He was one of those characters who was very difficult to work with. He was such an evangelist for his system that he would brook no criticism and impossible for any serious money to back.

 

[snowleopard]

...rigid sails which by definition must be inneficient as they cannot be cambered otherwise they would only work on one tack and a symmetrical aeroil only works at certain airpseeds,

Can't agree on that. Quite a few symmetrical sections are pretty efficient. Possibly not quite as good as the best of the asymmetric but enough to make the extra weight, complexity and reliability of a variable-camber wing of questionable value. There are other approaches to the variable-camber method. BMW Oracle used two sections with a hinge while mine uses a rigid aerofoil leading edge with a cloth trailing edge.

Here for example are the characteristics of NACA0012, a typical symmetrical section for this type of application.
http://www.mtmscientific.com/liftdrag.jpg

 

[Bajansailor]

Here are some photos of a yacht with a 'soft' wingsail 'Gallant' rig, originally designed by a chap called Jack Manners Spencer in Lymington in the early 80's.
http://www.svaphrodite.bostekanesthesia.com/

Some comments about this boat on the Cruisers Forum at http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f30/s-v-aphrodite-cruising-hawaii-4597.html

Another rig with a similar concept was the 'Tunny' rig, designed by Edwin Gifford - I remember reading about how one was fitted to a coracle style home built catamaran that was later sailed by her musician owners to America, but I cannot find any more info about her on the web. I do have a wee booklet about it somewhere, but where.......

PS - A pal of mine used to work for John Walker in the 80's, and would agree with David's comments above re how he was a very difficult person to work for - he led a very lavish lifestyle, all funded by his many enthusiastic supporters - reminded me of these stories one hears about these various wacky religious sects and their evangelical leaders on personal crusades......

 

[HoratioHB]

Can't agree on that. Quite a few symmetrical sections are pretty efficient. Possibly not quite as good as the best of the asymmetric but enough to make the extra weight, complexity and reliability of a variable-camber wing of questionable value. There are other approaches to the variable-camber method. BMW Oracle used two sections with a hinge while mine uses a rigid aerofoil leading edge with a cloth trailing edge.

Sorry my point is that my design only uses sailcloth and is not heavier or particularly more complex or less reliable than a conventional sail. The camber can be adjusted with one control and it can reeefed and hoisted like a conventional sail. This has to be better than a symmetrical aerofoil, not the least because the camber can be changed to suit the relative wind speed. I know it works I made one and tried it out. Happy to discuss the idea in more depth but not on a public forum. Hence my serious request to anyone as to who I might approach.