Windlass Removal

[BobnLesley]

As you may recall, our Lewmar V3 Windlass stopped working a couple of weeks ago - the motor sounds fine, but the shaft/gypsy aren't turning, so today's job was to remove it for fixing/replacement. I eventually got the four nuts off which hold the motor to the underside of the deck and to the gypsy and head down on top of the deck, taking great care to ensure it didn't fall on my head; I needn't have worried, the two halves are still firmly sat where they were to begin with. I'm not sure if it's sealant or corrosion holding them together, though I suspect the latter. The manual/parts book suggests they should just slip easily together/apart and that there are no other fixings? I am hoping someone might have a suggestion better than my own for getting them apart; I'm thinking to get the biggest hammer that'll fit/swing (sadly not very big) inside the anchor anchor and belting the visible bottom end of the shaft which I can see inside the gearbox/motor unit to try and knock that up to separate them?

 

[GrahamM376]

Could be the faces are held together with sealant. Anyway you can tap a scraper or thin blade between the mating faces?

 

[CJ13]

The casing on my Lewmar Pro series is sealed with sikaflex or similar- no gasket etc, so a little persistence with a screw driver should work.
We had a similar problem with our windlass - the shaft had sheared. The shaft comes with compound gear assembly & cost around £120 from Aquafax, Hamble.
We've also burnt out 2 motors & will change to a Lofrans Windlass in the autumn.

John

 

[sailaboutvic]

To split out quick we had to leaver it with a crow bar at the same time run an hacksaw blade between the deck and the windless . Hammering it will do no good

 

[BobnLesley]

Thanks Guys, it sounds like this is going to be even less fun than I'd thought!

 

[tudorsailor]

I have a Lewmar Ocean windlass. I had to take it apart as the lower cone was disconnected from the shaft. I had exactly your problem in that I could not get the motor off the shaft. It was indeed held on by salty corrosion. I spent a lot of time hammering to separate the motor from the base plate. No fun when it was 30+deg. I am assuming that you have capstan and gypsy and so can put a winch handle into the top nut?

What I learned was the following. Put something in to separate the motor and base a bit. I hammered in a screwdriver and then a blunt chisel. The advice from Lewmar was the whole thing is quite agricultural and little harm to be done by using force! If you can make a gap you then then can release the circlip that stops the shaft going upwards. Then I should have used a winch handle into the top of the shaft to draw it upwards rather than hammering to push the motor down. Difficult to explain but you can only raise the shaft up to the top of the woodruff key. Each time you raise it up the gap between top of the motor and the underside of the base should be bigger. Let shaft and motor sink down and put something a bigger object between the top of the motor and the underside of the base and repeat the process. In other words you get the shaft out the motor step by step. Hopefull you'll get to the point that the motor is off the shaft. Then you can remove the Woodruff key from the shaft and raise it up through the deck. In my case, getting the Woodruff key off was a challenge too!

I hope that this helps.

TudorSailor

 

[jetx]

I hope that this helps.

I know this is an old thread, but just wanted to say thank you Tudorsailor for taking the time to post this. It helped me a great deal. After many hours of cursing and consternation, I was finally able to get my my Ocean 3 windlass apart using the procedure you described... thanks for sharing it!

 

[Neeves]

Most windlass makers recommend an annual or 2 yearly service. The procedure is fairly simple and relies on disassembling the windlass, checking (and refilling if needed) the gear box oil and greasing the shaft. Its a good idea to recoat the bolts needed for the assembly with Duralac or similar (as many windlass use aluminium castings, somewhere).

If you follow this procedure your windlass will last longer.

The 3 common 'failures' of windlass are a seized shaft, dry gearbox (both self inflicted) and seized bolts (commonly blame lies with whoever commissioned the yacht).

Windlass are fairly robust, pretty simple and will last for many decades.

The most common servicing issue is access, boatbuilders seem to think windlass will not need to be serviced and locate them to be difficult to access and disassemble. You need to work this issue out yourself.

You really miss them when they do not work!

Jonathan

 

[tudorsailor]

I know this is an old thread, but just wanted to say thank you Tudorsailor for taking the time to post this. It helped me a great deal. After many hours of cursing and consternation, I was finally able to get my my Ocean 3 windlass apart using the procedure you described... thanks for sharing it!

That's kind of you to post. I think that next time I drop the motor I will mark the the plates that come apart with vertical lines before undoing the big bolts. It would make aligning the plates when re-assembling much easier. I also think a small bottle jack would be good to gradually push the motor assembly up into position.

I see that Neeves say that one should check and refill the gearbox oil. I have no idea if one can get into the gearbox on a Lewmar windlass. At the beginning of this season the gearbox was sticking and I think it does need attention. So if someone knows how to get into the Lewmar gearbox, that would be helpful

TudorSailor

 

[jetx]

I have no idea if one can get into the gearbox on a Lewmar windlass. At the beginning of this season the gearbox was sticking and I think it does need attention. So if someone knows how to get into the Lewmar gearbox, that would be helpful

The 15yr old Lewmar Ocean 3 that I finally got apart (with your help), and the Lewmar V4 that I installed to replace it (repair parts for the V3 were prohibitive) both have permanently sealed gearboxes. The Lewmar manual doesn't make any mention of checking/replacing oil. There was an oil fill plug on the Ocean 3, but mine was seized and I couldn't get it to budge. I removed the gearbox end cover just out of curiosity (wanted to visually confirm what I was sure was a stripped gear), and was surprised to find that the oil inside was pristine and clear, and the machined parts all looked like they just came off the lathe yesterday. So at least on these models, looks like oil change is unnecessary.

 

[tudorsailor]

I removed the gearbox end cover just out of curiosity (wanted to visually confirm what I was sure was a stripped gear), and was surprised to find that the oil inside was pristine and clear, and the machined parts all looked like they just came off the lathe yesterday. So at least on these models, looks like oil change is unnecessary.

Apparently my gearbox has a "ram gear" whatever that is to allow the chain to free fall once the top nut is loosened. I think that it needs cleaning
How did you the gearbox end cover off? Was this easily done? Did you take any photos that you could share?
Thanks

TS

 

[Neeves]

Most of these gearboxes have a mechanical seal/bearing through which, a, or the shaft passes (somehow the shaft has to connect to the gearbox).

The mechanical seal/bearing needs to ensure water, or worse does not get into the gearbox. If the windlass is treated with care the seal should last a considerable time (it would be a marvel if it lasted as long as the rest of the windlass - given that its a bearing as well). But if you apply too much load to the windlass, snatch loading etc etc the seal of the bearing might, and often do, fail. Then you get water in the gearbox - and it is for this reason many gearboxes have a sight glass now (so you can see the state of the oil) and why you should not stress the windlass - you will be most unlikely to damage the shaft but you may damage the mechanical seal.

Windlass are very robust (and very simple - agricultural is an excellent word) - apart from corrosion (much of which is bad design (aluminium and stainless simply do not mix) and not greasing the shaft - windlass do seem to last for ever - but I'd want to check the gearbox (and offer protection to the motor from being washed with seawater every time you retrieve).

Jonathan

 

[RichardS]

Most of these gearboxes have a mechanical seal/bearing through which, a, or the shaft passes (somehow the shaft has to connect to the gearbox).

The mechanical seal/bearing needs to ensure water, or worse does not get into the gearbox. If the windlass is treated with care the seal should last a considerable time (it would be a marvel if it lasted as long as the rest of the windlass - given that its a bearing as well). But if you apply too much load to the windlass, snatch loading etc etc the seal of the bearing might, and often do, fail. Then you get water in the gearbox - and it is for this reason many gearboxes have a sight glass now (so you can see the state of the oil) and why you should not stress the windlass - you will be most unlikely to damage the shaft but you may damage the mechanical seal.

Windlass are very robust (and very simple - agricultural is an excellent word) - apart from corrosion (much of which is bad design (aluminium and stainless simply do not mix) and not greasing the shaft - windlass do seem to last for ever - but I'd want to check the gearbox (and offer protection to the motor from being washed with seawater every time you retrieve).

Jonathan

I'm not sure why a windlass would use a combined seal and bearing? My windlass, and every oil-filled mechanical device I have ever worked on, uses a bearing to support the shaft and a separate replaceable lipped oil seal to retain the oil. Loading on the windlass is very unlikely to affect the life of the oil seal although, as you rightly say, the maintenance regime usually will.

Richard

 

[Neeves]

I have a collection of photos of the innards of various windlass gearboxes that are lubricated with a combination of water and a brown coloured muddy material, rust, mud etc - not sure what but I am convinced a poor lubricant. I have not had the courage to taste the material but assume it is derived from seawater (and if not mud and rust then ?). This is not uncommon. The gear box should be filled with oil (the gears could be bright and shiny) but the muddy stuff and aqueous material get in somehow - something has to fail. Now why it fails - I certainly cannot be definitive - but snatch loading seem a likely candidate - which will damage any bearing and then any rubber seal - or combination of the 2. A mechanical seal can be a rubber seal and the orifice into which it fits - it can be simple or sophisticated. The simplest mechanical seal would work on surface tension (jut a good fit) - but the last one I saw like that was 35 years ago in a Chinese power station (and the shaft was a poor fit, which was why I was there).

Seized shaft: inadequate (regular) lubrication.

Corrosion: (poor design) and an absence of Duralac.

Gear box full of noxious material - take your pick, I chose snatch loading - if you have a better idea, I'm happy to learn.

Sadly I see windlass installed on new yachts (and have even more pictures) with the motor installed with the chain falling onto the motor, I see no trace of duralac (or anything else to stop corrossion). I see yachts anchored with queue straight rodes snatch loading in waves (no snubber) - and snatch loads can be high - particularly when bailing out of a frisky anchorage (think many 100s of kilos, I know because I've measured them) and though I know people regularly, or irregularly, service their engines (or more commonly have someone do it) I simply do not hear of people servicing their windlass nor employing someone to do it (until its too late).

Hands up those who schedule the servicing of their windlass (as they do their engine and winches).

Fortunately windlass are agricultural, very simple and survive years of abuse.

Jonathan

 

[tudorsailor]

I have just emailed Lewmar. There are three seals (not bearings) apparently. Lewmar do not have spares and do not know the spec. So if I do remove the gear box and want to replace the seals, then I need to be in reach of a motor factor that sells lip seals! Not so easy when cruising the Ionian More research required................

TS

 

[Neeves]

The gearbox must have bearings? For the seals to fail the bearings might be damaged - or you have simply worn the seals.

I assume they sell a complete gearbox as a (the) spare.

Jonathan

 

[ghostlymoron]

Just a word of warning for those of you who have manual windlasses. The Lofrans Royale isn't oil lubricated, it is just grease that does the business. Also, that model (and probably all windlasses) benefit from an annual strip down, clean and re grease.

 

[RichardS]

The gearbox must have bearings? For the seals to fail the bearings might be damaged - or you have simply worn the seals.

I assume they sell a complete gearbox as a (the) spare.

Jonathan

Jonathan .... it's no big deal but your two last postings demonstrate your confusion between the different functions of bearing and seals and why seals often fail for many reasons, but often simply because the lips harden with age, whilst the bearings may well be absolutely fine.

However, this is a very technical discussion which is not strictly relevant to this thread so I suggest we leave it alone unless you wish to start a different thread.

Richard

 

[Neeves]

Richard, A difference in interpretation

And not relevant to failures in windlass, or I don't think so.

In any event you are correct in that I don't know why seals in gearboxes fail - all I know is they do fail (about which I make more or less educated guesses) - and they, the seals or oil condition in the gear box, do need to be checked and shaft lubricated.

When people ask me - its always too late and the windlass has reached the point of retirement. Usually there is so much corrosion something needs to be attacked with a angle grinder, the gearbox is stuffed and motor casing corroded beyond repair.

Jonathan

 

[jetx]

I assume they sell a complete gearbox as a (the) spare.

Yes, I assumed the same thing. Silly me.

The motor+gearbox on these Lewmar models were supplied as a single unit/assembly. For a time, Lewmar did offer the complete MGB as a spare, but it was priced nearly as high as a new windlass. Lewmar has since discontinued selling these spares for my particular (15 year old) windlass. I was able to locate a few "old stock" MGB units out there, but cost was ridiculous.