Windlass advice

[Avocet]

Having dug the anchor well into some clay the other weekend, I'm wondering about a windlass. Too much like hard work, pulling it up by hand these days! The boat is only 27 feet long with a 25lb CQR, about 30m of what I' believe is 5/16" chain, and another 30m or so of nylon rode spliced to the chain. I don't really fancy the complication or expense of an electric winch, so a manual one would be fine. I know nothing about windlasses, however, and would be grateful for some advice! So far, the questions that spring to mind are:

1. How can I be certain it is 5/16" chain? Is 5/16" the diameter of the round bar that each link is made from?
2. I've heard of "calibrated chain" and I gather that's what windlass gypsies like. How can I tell if what I have is "calibrated" and does it matter?
3. Avocet has no bow roller. Only a (very) substantial brass casting with a groove in it that the anchor chain sits in.
4. The chain locker is in the forepeak and the chain goes in and out through a hawse pipe with a flap on it, facing aft, and offset from the longitudinal centreline of the boat (and therefore the stemhead fitting groove) by about a foot. If I get a traditional windlass where the gypsy is vertical, and I put the gypsy (more or less) on the centreline of the boat, I won't get much "wrap" of chain round the gypsy. Is that likely to be a problem?
5. If I go for a second-hand one is there anything I should look for in particular?

Is there anything else I should consider?

 

[Tranona]

The only manual windlass on the market now is the Lofrans Royal, although I think it is on its way out. Marinescene have a special offer on it including a demo model at £400 (normal is around£600). You can see why few people buy as for not much more you can get an electric one.

Your current setup is not ideal as you really need a pipe to drop the chain directly into the locker. You can buy these, or if you are looking second hand you may well get one with the windlass. The ones you may find secondhand are a Vetus equivalent of the royal and like that is a horizontal axis with a warping drum and a gypsy. unlikely you will find a 5/16th gypsy, most will be 6 or possibly 8mm - or an SL Anchorman vertical axis. I have one of these with a warping drum on a similar size boat and like it, partly because I can sit on the coachroof and wind it like a sheet winch.

However, manual windlasses are still hard work, just less hard than hauling by hand. Of course better at breaking out as you can put some heft behind the handle. On the other hand they are very slow to retrieve and I often used to bring most in by hand and only use it to break out and rapidly bring the last few metres in.

TBH if you are going to keep the boat (you won't get any younger or stronger!) consider biting the bullet and going electric.

 

[jdc]

1. How can I be certain it is 5/16" chain? Is 5/16" the diameter of the round bar that each link is made from?

You use a micrometer or pair of vernier callipers; the round bar, aka wire, diameter is indeed the 'size' of chain. Are you sure it's not 8mm which is very close? I ask because in the UK at least we've been metric for quite a while and chain doesn't last forever.

2. I've heard of "calibrated chain" and I gather that's what windlass gypsies like. How can I tell if what I have is "calibrated" and does it matter?

The chain will be made with links a certain nominal length. There are a number of standards, but two common ones are DIN 766 or ISO 4565 and it'll almost certainly be made to one or other of these. You measure the repeat length of the chain (I measure 10 links and then that length divided by 10 is the repeat). Look at a number of websites for more info (Vyv Cox's one is always a mine of useful info), but Hacket chains's is also good. https://www.williamhackett.co.uk/en.../grade_3_calibrated_short_link_chain/p-107153

8mm chain to DIN 766's pitch is 24.0 mm (as is 8mm ISO chain, or so I believe).

Does it matter if it's not 'calibrated'. Officially yes, because calibrated chains are made to defined tolerances which are important for the windlass's smooth operation. But - and this is an educated guess not 'fact' - it's hard to imagine any manufacturer these days who isn't using production machinery which turns out chain that's so repeatable and uniform that 'calibrated' is no longer special but is what you'll get by default. So once again, how old is your chain?

3. Avocet has no bow roller. Only a (very) substantial brass casting with a groove in it that the anchor chain sits in.

If you can haul it by hand then I'm sure a windlass will cope! Are you sure it isn't bronze? Not that this matters to this answer.

Anything else to consider?

- 30m of chain is much cheaper than a windlass of any type, so it's no big extra to get new, quality, chain. Jimmy Green do good stuff (now).
- the splice between chain and rope has to pass through the windlass and still be gripped properly. The 8-plait through and through the chain doesn't work in this regard and a back splice with 3-strand is usually recommended by the windlass manufacturers. I use a back-splice which is even smoother as it passes only two of the 3 strands through the last link of chain (in case you think this is weaker, actually it's the strongest of all chain to rope splices as there are still effecitively 4 thicknesses sharing the load and the lead is fairer).

 

[Avocet]

Thanks both, that's plenty to get me thinking. I'm usually quite happy hauling it up by hand, but breaking it out this last time was really quite unpleasant! Lots of wrapping the chain round the Samson post and then Mrs. Avocet and I racing to the stern and hanging off the backstay to try and lever the bow up, then running back and getting another few inches of chain round it and repeating the process. Must have looked quite funny to the other vessels!

I'll check the chain next time I'm up there but as far as I'm aware, it came with the boat in 1972, so it could well be Imperial. We've never changed it in the time we've owned Avocet (which is coming up to 25 years now).

When you talk about "horizontal axis" and "vertical axis", I take it that is the axis of rotation of the gypsy? Also, if it is, do all vertical axis winches rotate the same way or do some go clockwise and some anti-clockwise when viewed from above?

 

[BabaYaga]

The only manual windlass on the market now is the Lofrans Royal, although I think it is on its way out. .

There is also the vertical axis Muir VM500 – at a price:
https://www.toplicht.de/en/shop/win...pills/hand-ankerwinde-muir-vm500-bronze-flach

If it is mainly breaking out the anchor that is difficult, perhaps a decent bow roller and some kind of stopper would be money better spent?

 

[Tranona]

There is also the vertical axis Muir VM500 – at a price:
https://www.toplicht.de/en/shop/win...pills/hand-ankerwinde-muir-vm500-bronze-flach

If it is mainly breaking out the anchor that is difficult, perhaps a decent bow roller and some kind of stopper would be money better spent?

That looks nice. My SL anchorman is also bronze and cost les than £250 complete with warping drum and hawse hole!.

 

[Tranona]

When you talk about "horizontal axis" and "vertical axis", I take it that is the axis of rotation of the gypsy? Also, if it is, do all vertical axis winches rotate the same way or do some go clockwise and some anti-clockwise when viewed from above?

The SL (and vertical axis electric) run clockwise, that is the chain enters from the right goes through typically 150 degrees then is directed down through 90 degrees through the hawse. Horizontal axis mostly have the gypsy on the right and the chain runs over 90 degrees and direct down.

Manufacturers show dimensioned drawings and installation instructions on their websites. The windlass may have to be mounted off centre if your bow roller is central so you need to be sure that the king plank reinforcement is wide enough or can be widened.

 

[sailaboutvic]

There is also the vertical axis Muir VM500 – at a price:
https://www.toplicht.de/en/shop/win...pills/hand-ankerwinde-muir-vm500-bronze-flach

If it is mainly breaking out the anchor that is difficult, perhaps a decent bow roller and some kind of stopper would be money better spent?

Bit of a thread dift
This posting isn't to say that you do this your self .
But it amazing how many time I read lately that people break out their anchor with the windlass , 99% of the time at that point where the anchor need to be breaking out we moving slowly forward , that it break itself out ,
the odd times when it's been so far in that it won't , we just snubbed the chair and slow drive over it .
Back to the OP , I grew with Tranona and would go for a electric windlass , the extra cost will be well worth it in the long run .
Plus a cheap RC and you can do it from anywhere on the boat .
5/16 is 8mm give or take and unlike 10mm chain where they are two types 8mm with fit all gypsies .