Wind over tide

[ian38_39]

Over the weekend we enjoyed a short 20 mile cruise from Great Yarmouth to Southwold.

The trip down was virtually mill pond on Saturday but by Monday the wind had freshened considerably to a good 3-4 NE, for any not familiar with the East Coast anything with E in it is not good.

We have a Sealine 310 Statesman and were traveling with friends in a 310 Ambassador bot 30' planing boats. Made the call to wait for the tide to turn to give wind over tide but both against us, what we were faced with was a very bumpy ride back that forced us down to 15 knots with legs in and tabs down, just about able to plane but having to watch the holes to avoid too much slamming.

Did we make the right call or would it have been better to run wind against tide but with the tide with? My thoughts are the latter may possibly have been better as even though the waves may have been bigger we would have been hitting the right side of them.

What are others thoughts?

 

[Thepipdoc]

A good question. So much so, I could have written it myself!
I too would like to know whats the best thing to do in situations like this because we had a very simmilar episode on Wednesday last week traveling from Falmouth to Dartmouth.

 

[[2068]]

Wind and tide might feel bad in a 30ft planing boat, but wind against you and tide running away from you creates horrible holes, esp in shallower water. Also tide running over an uneven seabed can cause havoc.

Running downwind with the tide against you can be a lot of fun, up to a certain point - the point where you start to lose control of the steering at which point there's not much for it other than to drop into semi-planing mode and let the waves roll around you.

 

[ian38_39]

So we made the right choice? I have run the same way in deeper water around the Thames Estuary, all be it on the ebb with a South westerly rather than the weekends flood and NE, have to admit it was a lot smoother and a comfortable 22 knot cruise.

What would be classed as shallow in general terms? we were running in between 10 and 15m, which on the East coast would be seen as a lot of water.

 

[mateyboy]

Depending on depth I would rather go with tide which seems odd as the waves are going against us with the wind. Failing that if its really bad I have travelled at 45 deg and zig zag like a yottie.

 

[Solitaire]

Over the weekend we enjoyed a short 20 mile cruise from Great Yarmouth to Southwold.

The trip down was virtually mill pond on Saturday but by Monday the wind had freshened considerably to a good 3-4 NE, for any not familiar with the East Coast anything with E in it is not good.

We have a Sealine 310 Statesman and were traveling with friends in a 310 Ambassador bot 30' planing boats. Made the call to wait for the tide to turn to give wind over tide but both against us, what we were faced with was a very bumpy ride back that forced us down to 15 knots with legs in and tabs down, just about able to plane but having to watch the holes to avoid too much slamming.

Did we make the right call or would it have been better to run wind against tide but with the tide with? My thoughts are the latter may possibly have been better as even though the waves may have been bigger we would have been hitting the right side of them.

What are others thoughts?

Put it down to experience! Normally wind over tide means wind and tide in opposite directions so the sea will pile up. Remember, winds blow from, tides flow to. You want the wind and tide in the same direction, check out your tidal flow in the almanac for your area; then check the wind have the two going in the same direction and you will feel the difference. But you can't always time it perfectly so just warn the crew that it might get "a bit lumpy"!

 

[ian38_39]

Hi Solitaire,
My terminology may be wrong but the idea was right, tide was running from NE to SW and wind was NE, to me that was wind over tide assuming that wind against tide would mean the wind blowing against the flow of the water?

 

[Solitaire]

Hi Solitaire,
My terminology may be wrong but the idea was right, tide was running from NE to SW and wind was NE, to me that was wind over tide assuming that wind against tide would mean the wind blowing against the flow of the water?

Hi, yup that is wind with tide and not wind over tide. Tidal flow is SW and wind NE so both in the same direction. What you need to get to grips with is what happens when you come back! And if you do it within the same tidal cycle then you will notice the change.

It is your terminology - wind over tide means the tidal flow and wind are pushing against one another, or in your parlance "wind against tide".

Your boat is perfectly capable of handling it, just the crew and your experience that will be the issue.

 

[whisper]

Hi Solitaire,
My terminology may be wrong but the idea was right, tide was running from NE to SW and wind was NE, to me that was wind over tide assuming that wind against tide would mean the wind blowing against the flow of the water?

Like you, I think that I've always thought that W over T was both going in the same direction. If that's wrong then what do you call the situation when they go in opposing directions?

 

[Solitaire]

Like you, I think that I've always thought that W over T was both going in the same direction. If that's wrong then what do you call the situation when they go in opposing directions?

Wind over tide means the wind is blowing in the opposite direction to the tidal flow - not with it. The wind is blowing over the tide which if you have a tidal flow of 270 and a wind direction of 270 then the wind is blowing over the tide. If the tide is flowing 090 and the wind is 270 then it is wind with tide and you will have smoother conditions as the wind is flattening out the sea in the tidal flow. More noticeable on Springs than Neaps however.

 

[Ripster]

Like you, I think that I've always thought that W over T was both going in the same direction. If that's wrong then what do you call the situation when they go in opposing directions?

Blimey, just wondering the same thing after reading this. My understanding is that wind and tide in same direction = wind over tide. Wind and tide in opposing directions = wind against tide.

 

[[2068]]

Wind over tide = wind going one way, tide going t'other
Wind with tide = both wind & tide going the same way


Wind over tide, boat going downwind = yeeee-hah.
Wind over tide, boat going upwind = crunch, bang, ouch, crash, are we there yet?

Wind with tide, boat going downwind = Pass the G&T.
Wind with tide, boat going upwind = Doomph, burble, booomph.

 

[Solitaire]

Wind over tide = wind going one way, tide going t'other
Wind with tide = both wind & tide going the same way


Wind over tide, boat going downwind = yeeee-hah.
Wind over tide, boat going upwind = crunch, bang, ouch, crash, are we there yet?

Wind with tide, boat going downwind = Pass the G&T.
Wind with tide, boat going upwind = Doomph, burble, booomph.

I've copied that! LOL

 

[Ripster]

Wind over tide = wind going one way, tide going t'other
Wind with tide = both wind & tide going the same way


Wind over tide, boat going downwind = yeeee-hah.
Wind over tide, boat going upwind = crunch, bang, ouch, crash, are we there yet?

Wind with tide, boat going downwind = Pass the G&T.
Wind with tide, boat going upwind = Doomph, burble, booomph.

Yep understand all that, thanks. Its the terminology I had wrong. Live and learn

 

[ian38_39]

Accepting that my terminology is wrong the reality is that I went at the best possible time given that the wind was with tide but against us, short of going in the other direction there was not a great deal more I could have done?

Tried running faster at 22 knots and that was very slammy, 15 was livable although occasional slams did occur even with lots of throttle operation.

The chop was 2-3 foot with a wave length of around 5' so by my reckoning pretty close, made me think faster and up on top would be better but that didn't prove to be the case with any amount of tab or trim in either direction.

I have been out in much worse but the sea looked as if the boat should be able to cope much better than it seemed too, did try to run at differing angles but that just brought the Sealine sway into greater effect, being a tall, short, slim, Bird she does tend to waddle a lot when the swell is on the quarters even though there was only a couple of foot of swell.

 

[Solitaire]

Accepting that my terminology is wrong the reality is that I went at the best possible time given that the wind was with tide but against us, short of going in the other direction there was not a great deal more I could have done?

Tried running faster at 22 knots and that was very slammy, 15 was livable although occasional slams did occur even with lots of throttle operation.

The chop was 2-3 foot with a wave length of around 5' so by my reckoning pretty close, made me think faster and up on top would be better but that didn't prove to be the case with any amount of tab or trim in either direction.

I have been out in much worse but the sea looked as if the boat should be able to cope much better than it seemed too, did try to run at differing angles but that just brought the Sealine sway into greater effect, being a tall, short, slim, Bird she does tend to waddle a lot when the swell is on the quarters even though there was only a couple of foot of swell.

Reading this says you know what you are doing. Use of throttle etc says a lot about your helming. You will just have to live with the conditions and the fact that you found an "optimum" speed also says a lot. The more you go out and experience different conditions the more you will learn.

 

[[2068]]

Wind with tide going upwind: minimum planing speed, plenty of tabs, legs trimmed in, and the hull tilted a bit away from the direction the waves are coming from is about the best you can do.

Only other option would have been to stop at Lowestoft and part-ex for a Hardy 50

 

[ian38_39]

Thanks Solitaire, I only have about 1000 sea miles under my belt so I am still learning lots but the East coast and North Sea does seem to have something different to throw at us almost every time we are out.

 

[ian38_39]

Thank's Flower Power, Think that is just about where we ended up.

 

[gjgm]

Over the weekend we enjoyed a short 20 mile cruise from Great Yarmouth to Southwold.

The trip down was virtually mill pond on Saturday but by Monday the wind had freshened considerably to a good 3-4 NE, for any not familiar with the East Coast anything with E in it is not good.

We have a Sealine 310 Statesman and were traveling with friends in a 310 Ambassador bot 30' planing boats. Made the call to wait for the tide to turn to give wind over tide but both against us, what we were faced with was a very bumpy ride back that forced us down to 15 knots with legs in and tabs down, just about able to plane but having to watch the holes to avoid too much slamming.

Did we make the right call or would it have been better to run wind against tide but with the tide with? My thoughts are the latter may possibly have been better as even though the waves may have been bigger we would have been hitting the right side of them.

What are others thoughts?

An easy way to test this yourself is when it seems a bit lumpy but still quite a smooth passage, try turning about and going the other way for 5 minutes.
Then you will know which is wind with tide and wind against/over tide
On a planned day trip, that why its a good idea to consider the journey both ways,as chances are, one of them isnt going to be so pleasant a trip - or in worst situation, turning back might need to be considered.